I read that post on other minds and I couldn’t understand it.

But in my case the way out isn’t through. Every thing I’ve read just seems to erode my mind a little more each day. Like with the math one saying that any axioms one takes can be adopted by the solipsist while also saying that premises that are solipsistically true lead to solipsism.

So it’s more or less saying everything leads to solipsism.

I would suggest looking at the math one. You say to do confirmation bias but I like to cover my bases when dismissing something to make sure I didn't miss anything.

To quote the math one:

Any axiomatic theory and set of axioms for that theory in the non‑
solipsistic language can be carried over into the solipsistic language
as a theory with corresponding axioms, provided that the latter
theory is strict. Importantly, it is easy to argue – see the reply to
the third interpretation of the Private Language Argument – that
basic mathematical theories are all strict. Hence, a solipsist can
avail herself of, say, Peano/Dedekind Arithmetic together with its
familiar set of axioms

At this point more philosophy I feel would just make things worse. That math one did a number on me and philosophy is what got me into this mess.

Honestly I feel like the less of this I do the better. Hopefully I can just forget about it.

Actually reading that last one on the math reads like he just demonstrated that if someone believes it that there is nothing you can say to convince them otherwise.

posted but my concern is with the two recent links like the math one right above you. Or the one from Vernon press.

This is the math one:

http://bc.upjp2.edu.pl/Content/5621/35_PDFsam_Ca%C5%82o%C5%9B%C4%87%20ze%20znakiem%20wodnym3.pdf

Where I think he proves it mathematically.

Solipsism can be proven to be true and it also results in unavoidable contradition. Basically the end conclusion is that either I am the only thing that exists OR the world is contradictory, in case I assume the opposite.

In short, the proof involves the fact that

I know I exist because I have a first person point of view in my world
Other things have a third person point of view in my world
Things are not both first person and third person point of view at the same time in my world
Hence, only I have first person point of view in my world.
If other things had first person point of view in my world, then they would be me
Since other things don’t have first person point of view in my world, they are not me
Only I have first person point of view in my world, because that is who I am.
Now, we established that only I have first person point of view in my world. So there is only one “me” in my world. Now let’s go into how many worlds are there?

Each person has the first person point of view in their world
There are a bunch of worlds out there
I know that I am in world number 234, because that’s where the first person point of view is
That means the first person point of view is not in other worlds
Hence, other worlds don’t have a “me”
Hence, in whole reality there is only one first person point of view, which is me
Other things do not have first person point of view
Point 14. proves solipsism to be true OBJECTIVELY. Let’s see a contradition

Let’s say other worlds also had first person point of view
This implies which world I live in is unspecified, because there is not enough information available
I know that I am in world number 234, because I exist in that world
Hence, the information to tell me which world I am in cannot remain unspecified, it must exist
Hence, point 16 and 18 are contradictions.
It is the existance of the first person point of view itself that tells me which world I live in. If there are multiple first person point if views in multiple words, then my world could not be determined for me, to know that I exist in that specific world. Since I clearly know that I exist in which world, this information cannot remains ambigous or unspecified. In order to make the information specific, there can only be one such information, which means one first person point of view can only exist in the entire universe, not just in my world. Q. e. d

This also implies that

If there is a subjective world, there can only be one such subjective world
Multiple subjective worlds coexisting leads to a contradiction in any one subjective world
There is at least one subjective world, because I exist in such
My world is not contradictory
Hence, it’s only I that exist

Forgot to add this too:

http://bc.upjp2.edu.pl/Content/5621/35_PDFsam_Całość%20ze%20znakiem%20wodnym3.pdf

Of course, I'm not, in a thread where you've asked for "help moving past solipsism" you've adamantly defended your position, choices and values to everyone who replied to you. You say "I've tried to challenge myself and it didn't work", all I see is someone who absolutely refuses to challenge themselves on even the most minor of points. — Judaka

Then you'd be wrong. I have done that but it hasn't worked out.

You're unwilling to be challenged by others, gave up on challenging yourself, and will only defend yourself against any and all criticism. You're compelled by an argument you don't remember, and say you can do nothing about it. If I meet you where you are, I've accepted your position is hopeless.

I am meeting you exactly where you are, I'm just not accepting what you say as truth, because it's not the truth. I could debate you on solipsism, but I've seen your replies to others who attempted that. You gave short, dismissive replies, and I'd just get the same, it was obvious to me that you aren't going to be convinced the way you want to be. — Judaka

Again that is not true. I am willing to be challenged but so far nothing that has been said isn't something I haven't already done to myself.

You haven't even explained your position on solipsism and apparently refuse to do so, we need to undermine the quora post's argument instead, but without knowing it. Under these conditions, it's 100% impossible to change your mind there either, you seemingly demand that I choose only paths that necessarily result in you believing in solipsism, or else I'm not doing what you want. You also refuse to challenge any of your interpretations or characterisations surrounding solipsism, you don't see how that makes progress impossible?

Well fine, I hope some months down the line, you try to challenge yourself again and explore new methods until you find success. If you actually give me your position on solipsism I'll respond, I'm sure it's trash and can be debunked easily, considering it's completely illogical to be devoted to concepts like truth and reality, while also believing the universe exists in your mind. Otherwise, good luck to you, I hope find the courage to try again somewhere down the line. — Judaka

Again I'm trying each day. But so far all you have done is say challenge yourself, which means nothing. You call it nonsense but that doesn't work. Doesn't help when I see some people take it seriously like this:

https://vernonpress.com/file/7502/e19b0d05052691e5d1fa06f3a2939a5f/1543562412.pdf

Which does explain it.

Solipsism as I see it is that I am alone. There is no external world, other people don't exist and are just figments of my mind with no real emotions. There wouldn't be anything to do or achieve because it would just be me, alone with no one else to recognize me. There would be no point in living in such a reality.

I already explained why I can't find the post on Quora.

Your paths so far suck, to be blunt. One of them is saying find stuff against it with the most confirmation bias. But confirmation bias is a bad thing, something you want to avoid doing. Proposing it as a solution leaves me wondering when it is ok to do it and when not to, especially since it's generally considered a flaw.

I fight this each day but nothing seems to work against it and I don't know how much longer I can keep it up.

Also this: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/GcSYdmHKi8QmYjyJG/can-solipsism-be-disproven

I told you have seen professionals before and nothing helped.

Also I’m not sure this is it but I think I found a post that says it proves it: https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-prove-solipsism/answer/Tonio-Barmadosa

Well, I accept that 'addiction' of any kind can seem invincible but many have broken such obsessions before. I have never heard an ex-addict ever claim that they are totally free of their addiction or that someone with obsessive compulsive disorder ever fully conquers it but they have reduced such to a level of daily insignificance, that allows them to stop living their life as a curse.
I think my friends personal hell that was triggered by his personal contemplations of the notion of infinity is very similar to your 'solipsism' obsession. He came through his obsession, does that not offer you some hope that you can do the same? — universeness

Except those addictions are grounded in reality and you can know they’re bad and serve nothing. It’s different from a philosophical position that not only you can’t prove wrong but you allegedly found someone who proved it right and that left such an imprint on your heart that nothing helps.

Now at this point it would feel like I’m lying to myself to say and or pretend other people exist. I can’t live a life like that, pretending I’m feeling something or caring about someone that doesn’t truly feel the same to me. I just can’t imagine living like that.

Heh, all I asked is that you challenge yourself and try to change, and yet as predicted, you reject even this and defend the conditions which necessarily lead to your conclusions. This "quora post" is a misdirection that serves to obfuscate the nature of your problem. Your position is that you're a prisoner of an argument you don't even remember, and there's nothing you can do about it? That's insane, that's the dumbest shit I've ever heard, and if you only agreed, it could be so good for you, that's according to you.

I find it ironic that an apparently solipsist is, in fact, such a slave to this imaginary concept of "truth", that shouldn't be possible. If our discussion continued and neither of us changed our position, from an onlooker's perspective, I would appear the solipsist, and you wouldn't.

I would tell you that reality is an illusion, that everything exists from the perspective of the individual, the individual holds a privileged position to dictate what is and isn't true, and to legitimatise their way of interpreting and characterising all concepts and things. You would deny that, and talk to me about the harsh nature of reality, and about being unwilling to compromise when it comes to truth. That's your idea of solipsism? What the fuck?

Can you either link me to a post where you explain what you think solipsism is or outline it for me here? I'm really curious about it now. — Judaka

I think this means you’re not reading what I’m writing and missing the issue I’m having.

I’ve told you I challenged myself on this and it didn’t work. I do it every time it comes up and nothing sticks. The main reason now is that alleged Quora post and nothing else. It’s not a misdirection it’s the truth.

I know it’s dumb and irrational to fall prey to something I don’t remember, don’t know is true, etc. But what I know is how I felt after I read or saw it and that feeling came from them proving it true, or at least me thinking it did.

You’re not meeting me where I am and just talking about you and what you would do.

I know the problem of not being able to find it. I’ve been looking but so far I’ve found nothing and I don’t want to come across some errant post about solipsism that will have me spinning.

I would be able to put it all behind me if not for the day for some reason. But I can’t remember any part of what it said which is killing me.

This isn’t a choice, though, you’re wrong there

Yeah, it all just comes back to that day that I can’t let go of for some reason despite all my efforts

That’s the issue. If you take needing certainty for knowledge then you really have nothing.

Then there are similar arguments like our brains hallucinating reality:

https://www.quora.com/I-m-scared-that-I-will-take-my-life-some-day-because-of-solipsism-Can-someone-help-I-just-want-to-know-if-anything-is-real/answer/Autistic-Salvatore

Are those things also senses like the skin or skeleton, etc.

I have tried going out and just being a thing and all that but it doesn’t work. Solipsism bleeds into everything that I do.

That also isn’t getting around the issue I’m having which is what I read that day.

That doesn’t help at all nor get around the issue I’m having

I don't know, the issue I have is this one post on Quora that to me proved it. But i can't remember or find it or know what it was about or what it said.

It's driving me crazy.

The solipsist could just say it’s their mind making other people act like that, but that’s just kicking the can down the road. They could appeal to the subconscious but that’s just one more unprovable assumption they’re making to support it.

Like even though that day still burns in my mind when I question how you could prove it true I get nothing. You can’t conduct an experiment to test it and there is no one you can prove the results to. Even if you “proved it” there isn’t anyone to corroborate your findings, so you can’t truly know if you’re right or not even if you tested it.

That’s true, if in over 2000 years I can’t find even ONE other proof of it then it’s unsolved and I am mistaken about what he said. But it doesn’t feel that way, it feels so certain.

Well as to not being able to be happy about being a solipsist:

It’s an interesting philosophical exercise. But as an actual theory-

Suppose you woke up tomorrow and knew that solipsism was true. What do you do?

Tell anyone? There’s no-one to tell. Do something? There’s nothing to do. Try and learn what’s going on? There’s nothing to learn. You can’t even break free like in a matrix scenario- there’s not cage or illusion. There’s just you.

It’s not just that it’s an unfalsifiable theory- god knows philosophy has no shortage of those- it’s that it’s a theory that, if true, precludes the abstract ability to do anything. If you accept Solipsism, you no longer have any reason to do anything. Even self-interest doesn’t apply anymore- there is no longer anything out there to benefit you. Just sit there and think happy thoughts forever. You can’t die. There’s nothing to kill you, not even your body.

You’re just a dream in the dark. And what does a dream in the dark do but lie there and think?

As much as that’s arguably a philosophers ideal, it’s perhaps best to ignore it and go to those theories that allow for any degree of thought or action in any capacity whatsoever.

That said I have been doing the stuff you said for some time since I first read about it, and it worked until I read that post on Quora that day. Now nothing seems to work.

I do want to be rid of it but confirmation bias to me is a bad thing. Choosing a belief purely out of comfort is what “stupid people do” (to just put it how my mind sees it). This who are brave face the harshness of reality without fear and don’t shy from painful truths.

My issue comes from my alleged proof on that day. Despite my attempts to doubt and question how I can know no matter how shaky I make it my mind can’t let it go. I’ve done nothing but argue against it, cast doubt, show the holes. But ultimately though my mind won’t accept it, because “you’re just trying to feel better rather than challenge yourself”. Attempts to believe something helpful are smacked away by similar sayings.

Side note you are overinflating what AI can be. From what we know about it it’s not going to get at the level you’re talking about.

Like I said, I have utter certainty about what I read that day proving it truth, in spite of the fact I can’t remember it, can’t be sure it’s true, etc. Yet knowing all that trying to doubt that just makes the belief stronger not weaker. As far as that part of me is concerned there is no doubt. And I don’t think I’m likely to find that post on Quora given I don’t know who said it or what it was under specifically.

That’s why I want it to be factually unprovable so that what I read that day can be wrong.

Hume did have interesting things to say about it. And you might have a point.

Though I think it’s a bit fallacious to say if the minds of the past couldn’t do it then future ones can’t. I mean I would totally go for that but it’s not a strong counterpoint. Though finding nothing on google does seem to support the it can’t be proven.

Though I would like someone to explain the quoted part.

That’s true. I mean philosophy has many things like that. But the point is to challenge our certainty and keep us honest. I don’t think they’re meant to be taken seriously.

You’re right I can’t refute simulation or multiverse. There is no way to test the simulation from inside it as all of it could just be part of the simulation. With solipsism I think the only way to know that it is is by what it’s not. IE I could only know this is all in my head by knowing what is not that. But you could never know, so you could never test, because you can’t escape your point of view.

Buuuuuuut then I read stuff like the second Quora link and I backslide all the way down into thinking denying solipsism is delusional. That and getting over how sticky that day of mine was. Though my theory as to why that sticks out is that it was Halloween and it was the day after I told my parents I my car needed a new engine because I didn’t change the oil and it was over $5,500 to fix. I was pretty depressed that day. I was also browsing ways out of solipsism like usually and had strong reactions to anything that didn’t say it was nonsense

I’ve tried such things before but it didn’t work. But the fact that I can’t even be sure if it was true, or what he said or who said it, undermines it a little. I just have a feeling I was totally certain that he proved it, which now seems less strong the more doubt I have about that day. There was a lot of emotions that day, and I have been totally certain and been wrong, and my memory isn’t perfect.

Could someone explain this point from the link, I’m not sure I understand how it disproves it:

If the mind is all there is, then he cannot know if his mind is all there is since what he knows is a projection of his own mind, which he cannot validate is the only mind in existence. It is assumed. But the assumption cannot be validated. Therefore, his solipsism is in doubt.

The part about this is that I have to wonder if I was mistake that what I read was proof. Googling it showed nothing, no site no author that proves solipsism is true. So the likelihood that some random user on Quora proved it in three sentences seems unlikely.

The other part is that solipsism is extra skepticism so I don’t think you can prove it true. I mean you’d have to answer where you got the language to be able to think of it, but further when you doubt everything but that you definitely exist you don’t have anything you can use to support your point.

IMO you would need utter omniscience to prove solipsism true and that’s never gonna happen.

Also I was googling and found this, would these be good arguments against it?

https://carm.org/about-philosophy/what-is-solipsism-and-is-it-true/

I want to love someone that would love me back but I can’t do that with solipsism. I can’t make friends with solipsism. Even therapy didn’t work because we can’t really shake it.

The one thing I can think of is if he did prove it on Quora, why post it on a forum or thread answering a question? It doesn’t make sense because if you do prove it there’s no one to prove it too. But posting it means you want others to see it so you’d be invalidating it if you shared it right?

I…didn’t understand a word of it.

I can’t do that and I tried counseling but it didn’t work at all.

I can’t treat it like a dream or a lucid dream. That would just make it worse. Nothing could be worse knowing you’re alone and everyone around you is hollow.

it is entirely solipsism. Especially that post on that day that “proved it true”.

I could let it go as a maybe yes or no if not for that post. But I can’t remember it or find it.

No. It’s followed me every day. Something just felt unreal ever since I read about it. I’ve turned to so much but nothing has been working.

That’s why I’m seriously hinging on it being unprovable because then I can let go of what that poster said.

I don’t want to keep “playing pretend” with everything and everyone around me. It’s too mentally taxing. I play video games but I can’t keep escaping into them all the time.

What is it about solipsism that affects you? — Tom Storm

Being cosmically alone (potentially). That all I love and care for isn’t real because they’re just mental projections. It’s scary. I can imagine hugging my dogs or future husband tightly and begging and pleasing inside my head for them to be real. It’s that horrible for me.

It’s why I ask if it’s unprovable because that at least makes it better, a little. It just become a matter of belief.

Until one day I was on Quora and thought someone ended up proving solipsism true. But I can’t remember what they said or if it was true but in the moment (I think so at least) it felt like a death blow to me. I’ve been carrying this all this time. But if solipsism is truly inherently unprovable then he is wrong and no one can. But I haven’t been able to shake that day and I’m not going to plumb solipsism stuff on Quora because I’ll get triggered again.

It’s devastated my ability to interact with people as I’m always holding back from caring all the way. I can’t just let go and feel, there’s always this wall between me an life and I desperately want to break through. But it just feels like a fight I’m losing.

There aren’t enough “really”s I can fit into a sentence to express how much I want to be rid of this, it’s truly heartbreaking

I would actually be way more comfortable with universal mind than being the only one around.

There aren’t physical values, nothing has innate value.

Something is precious or valuable when everyone needs it - water, oxygen, food (these are linked to innate physical values in science).

Something is also precious/valuable when everyone (or the majority at least) wants it - money, fame, authority, knowledge etc.

Something is worthless when it has no use to us, or nobody wants it, or both. — Benj96

No, this is simply not true. Something isn’t precious just because everyone wants it or needs it.

hence why he is wrong. Also I don’t think there are such things as learned desires.

Biology is the measure and meaning of all things and what is valued is what is either needed or desired by said biology to satisfy needs or desires. The satisfaction of need is life sustaining, that of desire is also life sustaining; in the sense of bringing the organism pleasure which is opposite of pain. So, things of value are life sustaining things. — boagie

Wrong.

And that's it? So the quote is wrong?

If one harbors no preconceptions of 'ultimate reality' or 'absolute truth' (themselves value systems), I don't find any concerns — Tom Storm

What do you mean?