Not even a reply because it's speaking massively of privilege and doesn't grasp the whole scope of life. Outside of modern society life is pretty brutal, and even in society you have to be born lucky to experience the good stuff. Honestly man...have some perspective. — Darkneos

So the question for this thread topic isn't something like "Is life worth living?"

But rather, "Is life worth living for underprivileged, unlucky people?"

And if we look at the modern socioeconomic trends, the answer to the latter is clearly, No.

Modern cultures that view euthanasia and assisted suicide positively and have legalized them are clearly saying that if one cannot live up to a certain socioeconomic standard, then it's better to die.

On that we agree (speaking of the commonality of the fleeting pondering of the concept of suicide). Hence my observation that the argument against suicide is: it's a permanent solution to a TEMPORARY problem.

Hence my observation that the argument against suicide is: it's a permanent solution to a TEMPORARY problem. — LuckyR

And whence is one supposed to get the optimism to believe this argument or see it as relevant?

Presumably every person has a breaking point, some just reach theirs temporally sooner than others. Once a person has reached that point, based on what can they still see their particular predicament not only as temporary, but, more importantly, that many better things are yet to happen for them and that their life will be nice and easy from that point on until the end?

Hence my observation that the argument against suicide is: it's a permanent solution to a TEMPORARY problem. — LuckyR

Not always. Don't forget people who have degenerative illnesses who would prefer to die than continue to experience suffering. Also people who have experienced traumatic events (prolonged sexual abuse, etc). The memories and pain - the PTSD may never go away either. Suicide may feel like the only method to gain permanent relief.

And whence is one supposed to get the optimism to believe this argument or see it as relevant?

Presumably every person has a breaking point, some just reach theirs temporally sooner than others. Once a person has reached that point, based on what can they still see their particular predicament not only as temporary, but, more importantly, that many better things are yet to happen for them and that their life will be nice and easy from that point on until the end

Several things.

First, the source of the "optimism" is the Actual Data that proves that among those in your exact situation (contemplating suicide), the vast majority (70 - 93%) will change their mind and decide that life is, in fact worth living after all. Though your implication is correct that many can not or will not understand or accept that data. But that is an error.

Additionally, we all continuously make a calculation that weighs the positives and negatives associated with continued existence. And you are correct some reach the point whereby the calculation tips to favor suicide. Say someone comes to that point at age 24. Statistically such a change is commonly brought about by a sudden, unanticipated negative (divorce, death of a loved one, financial or professional loss). That is: an acute event, as opposed to the effect of accumulated chronic issues. Think about it, if everything was going great for me then in a week my dad dies, my wife sleeps with my best friend and divorces me and my business is sued and goes under, my calculation will switch from "worth living" perhaps to "not worth living". However, fast forward 2 years, the death of a parent is something essentially everyone comes to grips with, as is divorce and bankruptcy. You'd be in a totally different mindset than the previous time point. OTOH, if I was born into abject poverty, with no family support, no economic resources and clinical depression, and I have reached the age of 24, by definition my calculation at age 23 was "worth living", so maybe at 24 it has tipped to "not worth living". Well considering what I have (successfully) dealt with all my life probably what has changed is my clinical depression (since everything else is rock bottom). Clinical depression is notorious for it's roller-coaster trajectory of ups and downs, that is how you're feeling is likely temporary.

Lastly your goal of life being "nice and easy" is a false one. Loads of people with not nice and not easy lives believe their life is worth living, which is the decider in this context.

Not always. Don't forget people who have degenerative illnesses who would prefer to die than continue to experience suffering. Also people who have experienced traumatic events (prolonged sexual abuse, etc). The memory and pain of the - the PTSD may never go away either. Suicide may feel like the only method to gain permanent relief

Well, you've pointed out a permanent problem (the degenerative illness), and I fully agree with Physician Assisted Suicide in such cases (as do many if not most).

As to grinding, chronic issues, those become the "norm" over time and don't independently tip the scales to "not worth living". True, the pain they cause provides plenty of examples in the "negative" category, but if despite their presence, the calculation is "worth living" something else, or a drastic worsening, needs to cause the balance to shift.

As to grinding, chronic issues, those become the "norm" over time and don't independently tip the scales to "not worth living". — LuckyR

I have spent 35 years working with people who have experiences of complex trauma and abuse, some were tortured in prisons overseas, some were, as children, sexually abused by care givers in horrific ways. Many people who undergo such things never recover, their brains seem to be rewired by the trauma. The high levels of substance misuse and suicide for this cohort are indicative. The assumption to date is that in some cases counselling or medication can assist recovery. But recovery eludes many people who wrestle with trauma for years and some, understandably, give up.

Clinical depression is notorious for it's roller-coaster trajectory of ups and downs, that is how you're feeling is likely temporary. — LuckyR

I have read two suicide notes in the past ten years from people who used precisely your term, e.g., 'I can't cope with the roller coaster ride any more.' It's hardly temporary if it's a continuous cycle. The experience of this is exhausting and every time you seem to be feeling better, you are conscious that just around the corner is another crash.

I was not aware that you are a professional in this very area. Then you're obviously conversant with the data, which (as far as my contribution to this thread is concerned) can be summed up thusly:

"The Houston study interviewed 153 survivors of nearly-lethal suicide attempts, ages 13-34. Survivors of these attempts were thought to be more like suicide completers due to the medical severity of their injuries or the lethality of the methods used. They were asked: “How much time passed between the time you decided to complete suicide and when you actually attempted suicide?” One in four deliberated for less than 5 minutes! (Simon 2005).
Duration of Suicidal Deliberation:
24% said less than 5 minutes
24% said 5-19 minutes
23% said 20 minutes to 1 hour
16% said 2-8 hours
13% said 1 or more days"

In an Australian study of survivors of self-inflicted gunshot wounds, 21 of 33 subjects (64%) stated that their attempt was due to an interpersonal conflict with a partner or family member (deMoore 1994). Most survivors were young men who did not suffer from major depression or psychosis, and the act was almost always described as impulsive. A similar study in Texas with 30 firearm attempters found 60% had experienced an interpersonal conflict during the 24 hours preceding their attempt.

Hence my reference to suicide trying to solve (most commonly) a "temporary problem".

"The Houston study interviewed 153 survivors of nearly-lethal suicide attempts, ages 13-34. — LuckyR

That age range is kinda problematic and the size is too small.

Hence my reference to suicide trying to solve (most commonly) a "temporary problem". — LuckyR

It's only temporary in hindsight, so that statement is false.

It's only temporary in hindsight, so that statement is false

Uummm... no. 1) the reasons for most suicides are temporary. 2) many lay persons don't realize that.

It behooves all of us to make fact #1 more widely appreciated.

Uummm... no. 1) the reasons for most suicides are temporary. 2) many lay persons don't realize that.

It behooves all of us to make fact #1 more widely appreciated. — LuckyR

Ummm...yes. The reasons for suicide aren't temporary, we just say that because of hindsight. At that moment you don't know what's gonna happen.

Think of Stephen King's Mist where the dad offs everyone in the car at the end because there is no guarantee the horrors will be gone and they can't live like that. Later the mists lifts but regret remains. But again it's hindsight.

You can call research and experience "hindsight", if you want to. And "knowing what's gonna happen" isn't the requirement to make life decisions, otherwise no one would decide anything.

But seriously, we're in agreement that being in the state of mind to seriously contemplate suicide pretty much guarantees the individual is unlikely to be able to process counterintuitive data. Hence the need to broadcast what is known in general from past experience.

You can call research and experience "hindsight", if you want to. And "knowing what's gonna happen" isn't the requirement to make life decisions, otherwise no one would decide anything. — LuckyR

Knowing what's going to happen is a requirement, that's how we make decisions. We do what we think is best based on reasons.

But seriously, we're in agreement that being in the state of mind to seriously contemplate suicide pretty much guarantees the individual is unlikely to be able to process counterintuitive data. Hence the need to broadcast what is known in general from past experience. — LuckyR

No we're not, because the alternative data is just hindsight and is invalid.

Then you're obviously conversant with the data, which (as far as my contribution to this thread is concerned) can be summed up thusly: — LuckyR

No, the data is not generally relevant to the practice of suicide intervention. It's also understood that the data on suicide isn't accurate. Deaths by suicide are often misclassified and underreported.

It's true that for many people suicidal ideation appears to be situational and may be crudely described as temporary. But most people I've seen in this space seem to have persistent triggers over a given year for many years. In other words, the temporary is recurrent. Birthdays, anniversaries, Christmas, etc are regular triggers for some.

But even where suicidality is temporary, this doesn't generally assist the person experiencing the emotional pain. The reality is that at the time people feel a chronic emptiness and/or hopelessness. To tell someone that this is temporary and they will feel better later may be experienced as unhelpful or irrelevant. People sometimes try to use this approach in counselling and the results are somewhat haphazard.

I never said nor implied that the REASON an individual contemplates suicide is always temporary (though you agreed that sometimes it is, say when it's situational). No, I meant that the conclusion after weighing of reasons to continue living vs dying concluding that suicide is the overall best course of action, is temporary. Sure, the REASON, let's say PTSD from a terrible upbringing, continues. But the day before the equation shifted towards "life's not worth living overall", the individual had the same terrible childhood and the same PTSD as a result and the decision was: "life IS worth living". The following day, for some reason the conclusion is the opposite, BUT some time after that, it shifts back the majority of the time (70 - 93%). All the while you're correct, for many, the stressor itself is not temporary. And I never said nor implied that the fact of the temporary nature of this conclusion should be the basis of therapy, as I have no experience in that aspect of the subject.

So, if I'm stressed out enough by my girlfriend dumping me to consider suicide, the feeling that I'll be this stressed out for the rest of my life according to you is: "valid", but the advice that the Suicide Prevention Hotline person tells me that I'll likely get over it (and her) is: "hindsight" and therefore : "invalid"?

Okay dude, you be you.

So, if I'm stressed out enough by my girlfriend dumping me to consider suicide, the feeling that I'll be this stressed out for the rest of my life according to you is: "valid", but the advice that the Suicide Prevention Hotline person tells me that I'll likely get over it (and her) is: "hindsight" and therefore : "invalid"? — LuckyR

The suicide prevention hotline has a success rate of barely 50% so their assessment on a problem isn’t exactly valid.

And yeah the advice they give you is hindsight, they can’t see the future. Some people never get over something and they just suffer in torment at feeling like they should be when they don’t.

You just don’t have a counterargument to what is obvious hindsight. You don’t know the future so you can’t say it’s a temporary problem.

And yeah the advice they give you is hindsight, they can’t see the future. Some people never get over something and they just suffer in torment at feeling like they should be when they don’t.

You just don’t have a counterargument to what is obvious hindsight. You don’t know the future so you can’t say it’s a temporary problem. — Darkneos

You don’t need to know the future to rationally conclude something is a temporary problem. You can assess outcomes based on previous cases, scientific knowledge, experiences, case studies etc etc.
if a doctor tells you your cold is a temporary problem are you going to say the same thing? “You can’t tell the future doc so Im going to just assume this will be a forever thing.”
Of course there are cases in which what you're saying is true, that sometimes a persons suffering will be chronic or not temporary and suicide is a valid option but not in every case. Many times the suicidal thoughts do go away, or the problem is temporary.

The suicide prevention hotline has a success rate of barely 50% so their assessment on a problem isn’t exactly valid. — Darkneos

Doctors have a much less than 50% rate of curing certain cancers, should we ignore their assessments on cancer as not valid either?

You don’t know the future so you can’t say it’s a temporary problem.

Several things.

First, I said it's usually temporary, not always temporary.

Second, while "some people" never get over their girlfriend's breaking up with them, wouldn't a normal person be interested in knowing that historically that number of "some people" is way less than 5%?

Lastly you can magically say it's NOT temporary (or permanent) as if you know the future. Not logical.

Hello! This is my first post, and of course I'm diving right into a heavy one! This is something I have considered a lot, actually, though obviously it's a tricky subject to talk about sometimes. I think the crux of the issue can be boiled down to a few things.

Q0) Does life have inherent value?

A0) Depends on the scale you're talking. Cosmically? Not really. Personally? Very much so. Spiritually? Obviously very debatable. I find there are a lot of different contradictory ways to answer this question, and how someone chooses to answer it tells you a bit about them.

Q1) Does life have value even when it isn't pleasant or is there a degree of unpleasantness to which death would be preferable?

A1) I feel like this is ultimately subjective, as the nature of suffering is personal and individual for the most part. From my perspective there are fates much worse than death, but I imagine everyone would have slightly different ideas on what that would be and some would disagree entirely.

Q2) If life does not have value when it is unpleasant, can value be generated or life be made less unpleasant?

A2) Again, ultimately subjective and/or due to circumstance. Fate is fickle though, so it's difficult to say with certainty if anything is truly unchangeable, so it's also difficult to advocate for walking away from the table when the game isn't over yet. Granted, I do also believe that sometimes a person can know when the only remaining move it to longer play. I just think that's a very personal decision.

Q3) If life does not have value, what is "the point" of anything?

A3) This is one I've personally struggled with, but I think it can rephrased and answered with another philosophical question I've chewed on over the years. "Why is there something instead of nothing?" can also be put "Why am I alive instead of dead?" And I think the answer then is simply "because you still are."

Ultimately, we are all surrounded at all times with a variety of ways to end our lives if we really really wanted to, and yet most people don't. Many don't ever even consider it. I believe to some degree life has a kind of momentum to it. So instead of "What is the point?", perhaps it's more like "What *is* the point." Being alive is to some degree, inherently self-affirming, or at least that's how I've tried to square that circle.

I think everyone comes up with reasons *why* they stay alive, be it religion, love, family, duty, honor, etc., Along the way, sometimes we lose those reasons, temporarily or permanently. Sometimes we find new reasons, sometimes we don't. However, I wonder if a lot of it really just boils down to "The argument against suicide is that you are alive to ask the question."

Thank you for your service.

Kind of a dud answer if all you're gonna say is "it's subjective".

First, I said it's usually temporary, not always temporary. — LuckyR

You can't even say that, again it's hindsight.

Second, while "some people" never get over their girlfriend's breaking up with them, wouldn't a normal person be interested in knowing that historically that number of "some people" is way less than 5%? — LuckyR

We don't know that.

Sorry, it's the only answer I've got. Whether or not a person's life is "worth living" is one of the most personal questions I can imagine. I admit I also find it somewhat unsatisfactory, but it's the conclusion I've come to. I'm not convinced this can be objectively measured since so much of life is ultimately subjective.

Just so you know, retrospective knowledge (what you call "hindsight"), is in fact knowledge. And as knowledge, is extremely valuable ("valid") to normal people (including yourself). When I hop in my car and drive to the store, do I "know" that the store is still there? No I don't "know" that, but I know it was there yesterday and that I haven't heard that some sort of incident occurred overnight.

You seem to be wedded intellectually to the concept of prospective knowledge (knowing what's going to happen, before it does). Since that's your thing, can you please give some examples of knowing what's going to happen before it does?

Just so you know, retrospective knowledge (what you call "hindsight"), is in fact knowledge. And as knowledge, is extremely valuable ("valid") to normal people (including yourself). When I hop in my car and drive to the store, do I "know" that the store is still there? No I don't "know" that, but I know it was there yesterday and that I haven't heard that some sort of incident occurred overnight. — LuckyR

Not the same thing.

You’re making a claim that something doesn’t last forever which can only be known in hindsight. Telling someone with suicide that is lying because you can’t predict the future.

Yup, same thing. I don't "know" the store is still standing until I arrive there (which is some time in the future from when I set out from my home), you don't "know" your grief is temporary until it passes at some time in the future. Not difficult to grasp.

If you were going to be burned alive, is jumping off a building a fair suicide? It seems to me that suicide is only ok if it prevents a life of greater suffering. Some evidence: some people in the World Trade Center incident decided to jump from the building rather than burn to death.

One could argue that jumping away from a lethal fire is reasonable, even desirable. The fact that the jump happens to be from a tall building, is secondary. Thus the action may not fulfill the definition (in spirit if not the letter) of "suicide", for many.

Yup, same thing. I don't "know" the store is still standing until I arrive there (which is some time in the future from when I set out from my home), you don't "know" your grief is temporary until it passes at some time in the future. Not difficult to grasp. — LuckyR

Not really, this is more like predicting future events. The store still standing is pretty much likely apart from a bomb going off or something.

But you prove my point, you don't know your grief is temporary so telling someone it is when you don't know isn't an answer just because other's was. It's like for those whom it wasn't they took their lives.

You keep making a rebuttal to an argument I'm not making. I never said anyone KNOWS a suicidal person's grief is temporary, I'm saying there is a 70% chance it won't be at a suicide inducing level in the future.