...amazing what can happen when the people that are in charge of public funding can get when they suddenly have an interest in an outcome.

Interestingly your "vast teams of scientific experts" did not support lockdowns, generalized masking, or border closures...until the politicians got involved back in early April. Totally scientific there. Nothing at all suspicious...

I simply cannot make more broken down and simple to understand. You don't get it, either by choice or by intellectual diversity. Regardless, it is clear that, no matter what is presented to you, unless it supports your position, you will simply ask for it to be explained repeatedly. I will not attempt to explain auto immune response to you any more: you have no interest in the answers. Good day to you sir.

Yeah, but policy mostly affects other people's children, especially for the wealthy — Isaac

Sure, if you follow policy. At some point, I would expect people to say "enough, this is stupid policy and I will do something else." Although, admittedly, I am not so good with understanding people.

Quick question before I get into it: How many of us posting on here about incels being such and such or having this or that perspective either are, or have been, an Incel?

Ok now that that has been asked...moving on.

I can recall a number of us (6) growing up, from about 16-20 years old, weren't "getting any". I use that phrase now because we used it then. We had no girlfriends, no entertainment, and felt generally rejected by the ladies. This pissed us off, mostly because we had the impression (although with zero data to support it) that we were the only guys around in this particular boat. Looking back it's no wonder that we weren't terribly successful in love, or lust. We were angry, sullen, quiet and so focused on bitching about how unfair our situation was that none of us actually bothered to go talk to a girl. They scared the crap out us frankly. Most of us got through that crap and went on to have decent relationships, then marriages, as successfully as most everyone else. Last I checked one dude went the epic failure way, but he, despite being exceedingly physically attractive to ladies, was always an entitled ass and his personality killed whatever attention his physical features could get him.

Point is, there are likely as many frustrated ladies out there as guys, once everyone relaxes a little and actually talks to one another, amazing stuff happens.

As ever, children seem to be treated like lesser citizens whose lives can be interfered with with impunity in service to the older generations. — Isaac

Which seems counterintuitive. As a parent, I sacrifice for my children's future, I do not sacrifice my children for my future, nor my parent's future. I am baffled why the governments seem to function in direct opposition to this concept. I do not not of one grand parent that would sacrifice their grandkids' future for the chance to live another year.

I would suspect it depends on the condition of the "living" daughter. I am aware of some conditions that death would be preferable to. Either way, if the sentence is too light, vigilantism is more appealing.

You're right, no pandemic. It's all a hoax. Still, though, there's this: something with a mortality rate of around two percent has killed more people in less than one year than were killed in the US Army in all of WW2. Anything to that? Ya think? — tim wood

I did not say Covid is hoax. Not ever. I said the response to Covid is fear based, not fact based. Yep, Covid killed over 300000 state side, and just under 15000 in Canada. Those are real deaths. The US number is just more than a months normal mortality rate, and about 2/3 of a months rate in Canada. Inflated numbers or not, still is an increase. Is it worth tanking our economy, our children's mental health, doubling our suicide rates, increasing our domestic violence, doubling our opioid overdoses for? Not a chance. That's the point I am making. Our "abundance of Caution", is excessively cowardly, and far more harmful that doing nothing.

If there are no symptoms prior to a trigger event then, logically, the triggering event was the cause of the body electing to turn on itself and begin attacking itself. Specifically, we do not know the cause of autoimmune diseases, as in, do Killer T-cells attack because there is a mutated protein on the exterior of the "other Identified" cell? We don't know that. To say that the underlying condition existed prior to the event is not helpful if we cannot determine that the condition exists prior to the event. You are pushing an "if C occurs then A must be pre-existing" however we aren't certain of the alphabet used, let alone the sequence of the letters.

I can't speak to the statistics of Europe without doing substantial research, and frankly, I am finishing off a 12 hour night, so just don't want to get into that now. However, Canada-wise, our increase in mortality rates has been roughly 8% from April to November. Now It is starting to ramp up, but an increase of 8%, while substantial, does not support the damage that the social and economic lockdown is doing. Our suicide rates have increased by over 75% locally. I don't have access to national numbers yet, they are "not available", not so surprising really, no one wants us looking. Cancer deaths are up, as are other medically delayed related deaths. I would not be surprised at all if the combined death increase from the lockdown effects were double the Covid related deaths. Last year we had 451 Opiod overdose deaths. This year, so far, 942. More than double. The counsellors for addictions firmly believe this is the result of the lockdown.

Coronavirus disease: unfortunate, but mostly manageable.
Response to Covid: Much worse than the disease, last longer than the disease, affects more than the disease. Generally a terrible idea based on fear rather than logic or science.

Never stop laughing. Far too many people take themselves far too seriously. Take time to watch the gophers. They have things figured out! Eat, sunbathe, sex, eat, sunbathe, more sex, chase away a rival, eat, sunbathe....eventually get eaten because you are too distracted by the eating, sunbathing, or sex. Not such a terrible existence really.

I thought the prevailing intelligence was that they are most likely genetic. — Metaphysician Undercover

Nope. Genetic predisposition has been fielded, however the triggering event theory is applicable in these situations also. Most of the histories that I have taken have the patient claiming that the symptoms were first noticed after some sort of event. Frequently they say "I just felt like something wasn't going right" with whatever sickness or event they had. I had one patient that "felt something off within a minute of getting my flu shot." Her symptoms started shortly after that. Was it flu shot related? No idea. Interesting that the patient believes it is.

Little known detail outside of the healthcare world: most of our hospitals run at 95-115% capacity as an operating normal. I listen to the news spew panic about a hospital at 100% capacity and think "I hope they enjoy the break". Lots for the places I worked in 2019 had days they ran at 130%. No news stories came from that.

another interesting note.
Montreal long-term care home last week. 95% of residents had their Covid Vaccine. 35% of staff considered getting theirs. So 65% said NO. What's the plan when over half the healthcare staff elect to not get vaccinated? Will we all get sent home? I can see the head line now: "Over capacity hospitals send home 60% of staff due to non compliance. The other staff quit due to workload issues" HA HA HA

What the fuck is that about? It's about inflating numbers to support the pandemic narrative. Using dead people to spread propaganda, that is some crooked, disrespectful shit. — Merkwurdichliebe

Yep. Pretty spot on there eh. If I want to push the evil of smoking I make sure I attribute any lung cancer, heart attack, or stroke deaths as having smoking as a contributing factor. I exclude other factors like genetics and activity levels, unless I can spin them to support my cause. Currently Covid is the push. If you have any underlying condition that is even slightly impacted by Covid, which, if you are positive for Covid, we say will impact your conditions, then if/when you die from one of your conditions, Covid clearly contributed to your death, since your were not dead before you caught Covid, so it's a "Covid related Death". If you crash your car while infected I could probably spin that as "Covid related" because maybe your vision was blurry from covid, or you sneezed and lost control, or your were extra drowsy (Covid induced fatigue). It's that easy. Reassurring eh.

I want an explanation of how it does happen. — Metaphysician Undercover

Bold request since no one really understands auto immune diseases. If I could tell you exactly how it happens I would be up for a Nobel prize and would have a considerable pay raise. In response to your other statement, that a common cold could result in you developing an auto immune disease...Yep, it could. But not very likely. We theorize that auto-immune diseases are triggered by an event, the body's response to that event jumps into a sort of hyperactive, aggressive, law and order group, and then proceeds to run around hassling various, or random, cells they see, and creates a disease response that previously did not exist. A lot like ticket happy bylaw officers harassing people about social distancing or not mask wearing creating dissention and anger where there previously was none. Which supports my global SIRS theory.

no worries about becoming sterile, My kids are all grown up. I object to getting the vaccine because, of the two options available to me: My training, education, and experience in this area for the last 15 years are entirely wrong, or B: the vaccine is fine. Going with what I know, not the current hysteria.

Mrna produces viral "spikes" to identify the "other". The body's immune system attacks the "other", as in the actual virus, and immunity is achieved. YAY. Version one.

Mrna produces viral "spikes" to identify the "other". The body's immune system attacks the "other", produced in the body, which is tah-dah! an injected autoimmune disease. The body, no longer able to effectively identify "other" elects to focus on sperm and ova as an "other" as well as the virus. Poof! sterile population and immune to Covid. Version 2.

Bottom line is, they don't know any long term effects. end of story.

Eliminate people. That is pretty much utopia for everything else. Also for people, as it eliminates strife and government and all the rest.

Within our current system it is very difficult to obtain appropriate treatment for mental health issues and there is extremely little room for an individual to improve their station. Frequently this is because the individual has been led to believe, through the interventions of "support" workers, that they are not repairable. Additionally the system does not condone anyone that attempts to help themselves unless they are doing so within the specific confines of the system. One may obtain government financial supports (welfare) due to ones financial needs being higher than ones earning potential (yep, really). However, should that individual elect to go to school or training to increase their employability and thereby command a more functional wage, they will be denied government support (Again, yep really). However, if, after meeting with a social worker, and developing a social worker approved learning plan (this process can take months) the recipient may be allowed to better themselves. However, their aspirations must be endorsed by the social worker, so if the worker disagrees with the person's decision of what to pursue, the worker can then refuse to allow them to set upon that path. This limits people to only improving in areas that others feel they are capable of, not based on individual choice. I have known people who have navigated this process for 18 months before being approved for a 3 month program.
I also firmly support the idea that we should be helping those who are willing to help themselves. Some will not be interested in helping themselves, electing to have the state support and do everything for them. I cannot support that, it seems to be unnatural to support such a life choice.

you know, until it turns out that you don't get covid but everyone that got the injection is rendered sterile. Then...actually, it won't matter much then.

Exactly right.

I came here to see what is being posted by those of a philosophical bend, presumably of higher functioning than those I am regularly dealing with. Most of the forum reflects this assumption and I am enjoying the sparring. Sometimes it is essentially the same closed thinking loops, with a much better vocabulary to draw upon, which is refreshing. However, once someone starts swearing at me, it tends to colour future interactions with them.

I have slowed down. I had kids, reassessed my life and put them first. Such is the way of life. But I am a much more severe judge for myself than others. I have tried to be a good man, as I define the term, based on my values. So far I have managed it, ask me again on my death bed, perhaps I will have a different view then. I do wear a mask at work, and now that it is mandated, at stores when I shop. My Christmas circle is always very small, this year is no different.

I am not an an anti-masker, nor am I an anti-vaxxer. I am an ardent pro-choicer. Allow others to make their own choices, or don't, and mandate the issue. But the argument that someone else's values and opinions make them selfish, because they oppose yours, is morally wrong.

I am glad that your girl decided to stay with you, that's great. Mine chose me, and I her, and our extended families can eat it if they disagree with our choices.

As to your question, would I end my life because I took someone else's accidentally? Probably not. I would trade places with them, but ending my life serves little purpose at that time, except to end any remorse I may have at my actions. I am too pragmatic to waste a life, mine or another's, on a pointless gesture.

Have a Great Christmas eh.

I would guess most soldiers sent into battle would strongly prefer to be somewhere else. But public safety, or national purpose, trumps their personal cautiousness. — Bitter Crank

You should talk to them, ask them how they feel about it. The ones I know looked forward to action, but I make no assumptions that all of them do. However, perhaps being a soldier is a bad idea if one has no interest in being in battle. As with fire fighters that don't want to go to fire calls, they have made a poor professional choice.

So, I think we need to balance our attitudes toward risk (tolerance or aversion) with the needs of the collective. — Bitter Crank

I work in healthcare. I know how to read the studies. I know that most of what has been announced by public health has been "spun" to illicit a specific response: "Remain calm. it will be ok" Which is entirely accurate. Remain calm because it will be ok. Having said that, there is no point panicking because it won't help anything. Everything will be ok because it always sorts itself out at some point, just wait long enough.

The government is blaming the "non-compliers" for the spread of the virus; they need someone to blame, so they have. Truth is, it was going to spread like this no matter what we did. The language they are using demonstrates their awareness of this. "Numbers would be so much worse if we had not done this...Numbers would be lower if we had better compliance..." etc. Good thing there are those who are not complying otherwise the party line wouldn't have a scape goat. No way the the government says "this won't do shit, but try it anyway eh, just so you think you are doing something." Despite it being accurate.

South Dakota did not mandate anything. North Dakota jumped on the band wagon. North Dakota is doing worse than South Dakota: infections/deaths. I am not judging them, just looking at the numbers.

Sweden did nothing, their numbers have increased, as did everyone else's. Their curve looks just like everyone else's. Their economy...better. Number of suicides...less. I see these as indicators that they made the right call. I wish my country had had the spine to do the same. Suicide hotline activity has more than doubled, actual suicides have "data unavailable", but locally have more than doubled. "no data available" for domestic violence increases, but if we don't look, I guess it doesn't exist? No data available for the lives lost due to cancelled and postponed medical procedures and tests as a result of our narrow focus on Covid. There is only Covid apparently. It's bullshit. My mask protects me from your bad breath, usually, and that is about it.

I won't take the vaccine, no short term, medium term or long term data exist for it. Hard Pass. If others want it, good for them.

Life isn't safe. Wear your mask, get the vaccine, live in a bubble. You are still gonna die eh. I plan on living a little before the end, those are my values. Enjoy yours and leave me be.

Elect your government, make your rules, engage in your community. It seems exceedingly one sided that your values, your perspective, and what you want, is somehow of more value than what those who disagree with you want. Animal farm anyone? YOU are more equal than I, because ...you want to be I guess. And it's fair, according to you. So I can do whatever I want, whenever I want, as long as I check with you first, and you say it's ok. Because you are everyone's mom, and everyone not you is somehow less than you, and needs to be protected from themselves, because they couldn't possibly know as much as you, etc. Seriously I could go on for hours about the greater good, and blah blah blah. But, in order to save time and typing please fill in every autocratic speech in history, Religious reform speeches, residential school justifications speeches, you get the idea. We need to be protected FROM you. Not the other way around.

I think that allowing you to wear your mask, respecting your decision, while not mandating you to adopt mine, recognizing that your values are different than mine, but of equal value, makes me who I am. I do not begrudge anyone their mask, the decisions they make, or the values that guide their lives. I simply ask for the same respect in return. When the house is on fire, I will go in after those inside, I will risk life and limb for those unable to escape, and I will not begrudge those who choose not to. However, when I am no longer allowed to go inside, not because of my concern, but because those watching aren't willing to do so, THAT I have a problem with.

You will live your life by your tenets, as you should. Wear your mask if you like. Get the vaccine if you like. However, do not impose your values on to others. We are not you, nor do we want to be. We wish to live life on our terms, not yours, or anyone else's. I have freeclimbed 250 foot chimneys (rock climbing narrow rock cracks without ropes), I have snowboarded in avalanche zones, and stood within petting distance of Wild grizzlies in rivers in Alaska. Most people will never see any of these things, let alone do them. I have driven at excess of 300kph. I ask not that others are mandated to do these things, but I have no interest in begin told I must stop because others are uncomfortable with them.

The mask dehumanizes my patients, my coworkers, everyone. Wear it if you want, but also recognize that others don't want to, and as with any decision you make, someone might mock you for it. Your extended family sound rather horrid. My condolences there. I can not support mandating values onto pother people. Not now, not ever.

Eventually they will demand that I get the vaccine or they will fire me. Too bad really, I like my jobs. But I am not taking the vaccine. Ah well. Career change I guess, no more fire fighting, no more first responding, no more Emergency Department. If enough of us do this...No more emergency services.

Poorly thought through mandate.

I would not have stressed her out so much in the first place. I have a very different approach to life than you have it seems. I am very comfortable with a certain level of risk. I do not expect everyone to accept my level of risk. I am however, opposed to being forced to operate at someone else's level of risk. That everyone is expected to conform to universally accepted risk tolerances is offensive to those of us that have lived through horrific experiences and have found balance with it. This trivializes our growth and development, effectively negating our healing process and forcing us to pretend to live in fear as do those around us.

I am a fire fighter. People run from the burning building, car fire, wildfire etc. I do not expect you to suit up and join me in an interior attack of a burning building. I do however expect that you will allow me to do so, as it is a risk I have accepted as an adult. Your values are not mine, nor should they be. I am not asking anyone to adopt my values, I am however, not interested in adopting theirs either. It is sheer arrogance to impose or mandate values on others. It is, in my opinion, quite evil, robbing people of that which makes them them.

I find it difficult to ascertain why people want to fit in so badly. I am unconcerned about fitting in at this stage, experience has demonstrated that I will not be successful even if I attempted to and I long ago lost the urge to try.

I constantly strive to understand the "why" of trying to fit in. It seems to be based primarily on perceived inadequacy of the individual trying to fit it, as if by not fitting in "they will be found out" and then their created world would implode, or some equally horrific result will come about.

My questioning in this area has yielded a multitude of answers that boil down to "because not fitting in is bad, because it means you don't fit in with the group." Clarity here would be appreciated. Being an outlier creates anxiety in everyone except those of us that are ok with it. Not very helpful.

While the term "individual" may not logically depend on a specific group, it does depend on the concept of a multitude. You can only be an individual if you can be differentiated from someone else in some way. Without this, nothing would give rise to the notion of individuality. — Echarmion

This is accurate with regards to the concept of individuality, as without a group there is nothing to contrast with, ergo no differentiation can occur. However, a group is not required for the determination of the self.

I believe that the individual is the fundamental threat to the group, despite being inherently required for the group, hence the insistence by the group to subjugate the individual. "The good of the many outweigh the good of the one", "the greater good", etc. With the determination of the self, as an independent entity and unattached to the group, comes the threat that said determination may spread throughout the group, reducing the engagement in the group and weakening the group. If this occurs frequently enough, the group, as a single entity, will die. Other, smaller groups may result, Likeminded selves congregating together, or isolated individuals will exist in a solitary manner. Regardless, the initial group is no more.

If an individual is one step ahead of the group they are a leader. Two steps; a Visionary. Four steps: a threat to be destroyed.

Sidebar: is a language-less creature one that has no language to use, or one that has no use of the language he has? — Mww

One that has no language to use is language-less. The other one is simply poorly educated, the language is there, willingness to use/learn it may be lacking.

Conceptually I agree with the idea of qualia. Practically speaking, the term "qualia" is of little value beyond its use in such unhelpful phrasing as "the patient expressed having multiple qualia..." Which, while accurate, is also fairly useless and I am not sure why anyone would actually use that phrase, as it would be a foregone conclusion.

A wise and benevolent govt — Todd Martin

Ha ha ha ha ha ha.....headed by Santa and the Easter bunny!

Sad that you think your girlfriend is foolish and selfish. Maybe let her go on her own while you stay safe in the basement eh. Her and her family can go have a good Christmas, workout their immune systems a bit, and maybe she can meet a guy that sees the world a little more her way. You can meet a mask in your basement and enjoy yourself safely.

Good plan!

Life isn't safe. Adjust.

We are rocks dreaming about being human and wondering what laws apply to the human perspective on the world and wondering if rocks are conscious to humans and what laws are and how they apply to dreaming rocks.

Unless the grocer is a serial killer who’s triggered when he’s asked for two apples. Then it kind of matters what’s going on between his ears. — Marchesk

But not necessarily to the purchaser of the apples. The grocer is triggered by the request, makes the sale and proceeds to plan and execute his next murder. The assumption that the serial killing grocer will elect to murder the apple purchaser is flawed and operates on the assumption that the grocer is a lower functioning serial killer. Maybe that is accurate, but it is a bold assumption.

That color and pain are models? — Marchesk

Both have models in my field, although in truth the pain models are fairly ridiculous, however the pediatric pain model is accurate enough, excluding the fundamental aspect of assigning an objective level to the subjective experience of pain as indicated by the facial expression on the individual experiencing it. Still, the models exist.

We don't need a vaccine. We need an acceptance of mortality. end of story. way cheaper.

no lives are ever "saved" eh. The end gets delayed, best case scenario. That's it. The finish line is moved back a bit, but the race always ends.

Not sure about TB deaths, but we could see some truely startling suicide rates from the lock down. As we have statistics for normal rates of overdose, suicide, etc, any marked increase in those from established baselines could be attributed as collateral damage from Covid lockdowns. That might get to half a million before it's all said and done.

Then it would not be a simulation. The premise of a simulation is that, no matter the outcome of the simulation, there is no change in the real world.