As long as Biden is the US president, Zelensky will have deep pockets to draw from. If Trump is elected, though, that would change, but I think the Ukrainians would still get bombs from somewhere. — frank

6. “The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” – Sun Tzu

14. “Do not engage an enemy more powerful than you. And if it is unavoidable and you do have to engage, then make sure you engage it on your terms, not on your enemy’s terms.” – Sun Tzu

That's quite a stretch and not relevant here. Taking these two territories "only', would have been much less deadlier than a full scale war. — Manuel

Fighting continued through the summer of 2014, and by August 2014, the Ukrainian "Anti-Terrorist Operation" was able to vastly shrink the territory under the control of the pro-Russian forces, and came close to regaining control of the Russo-Ukrainian border.[57] In response to the deteriorating situation in the Donbas, Russia abandoned what has been called its "hybrid war" approach, and began a conventional invasion of the region.[57][58] As a result of the Russian invasion, DPR and LPR insurgents regained much of the territory they had lost during the Ukrainian government's preceding military offensive.[59] Only this Russian intervention prevented an immediate Ukrainian resolution to the conflict.[60][61][62] — Wikipedia

Hence, maybe the Russians learned from that and it's better to not kill the leader of the country you're invading so that there's possibility of legitimate peace terms. If you kill the recognised legitimate leader, you have have no one to negotiate with that both internal and external actors will largely recognise as legitimate. — boethius

No, I'm asking you about what so far appears to be your support of acting in bad faith. — baker

At the end of Putin's second term, Jonathan Steele has commented on Putin's legacy: "What, then, is Putin's legacy? Stability and growth, for starters. After the chaos of the 90s, highlighted by Yeltsin's attack on the Russian parliament with tanks in 1993 and the collapse of almost every bank in 1998, Putin has delivered political calm and a 7% annual rate of growth. Inequalities have increased and many of the new rich are grotesquely crass and cruel, but not all the Kremlin's vast revenues from oil and gas have gone into private pockets or are being hoarded in the government's "stabilisation fund". Enough has gone into modernising schools and hospitals so that people notice a difference. Overall living standards are up. The second Chechen war, the major blight on Putin's record, is almost over".[154]

As for least bad choice, well, the one in which least amount of lives are lost. — Manuel

Doing nothing in effect gives free reign to the West to do whatever it wants wherever in wants and no regional power of any kind, will do anything about it. In effect, it sends a signal to other countries you'll take what we give you and you can do nothing about it. — Manuel

Putin's Russia understands this even better. Hence you car read about how much humanitarian aid Russia has sent to the Donbass and Mariupol. After all, it's just a special military operation. — ssu

Alleged strike on Russian fuel depot hurts peace talks - Kremlin — BBC

I said it was next to impossible. So whom do you trust, if you don't trust 'the media'? — Olivier5

If it's written by a US newspaper my working presumption is that it's a lie until I can find the same story in the Chinese owned state media. — Benkei

Red Cross aid convoy struggles to reach Mariupol

Gruesome evidence points to war crimes on road to Kyiv

Russian forces regrouping for attack - Nato — BBC Headlines

To provide impartial news and information to help people understand and engage with the world around them.

We are impartial, seeking to reflect the views and experiences of our audiences – so that our output as a whole includes a breadth and diversity of opinion and no significant strand of thought is under-represented or omitted. — BBC Editorial Values

London described the two outlets as “Russian propagandists and state media who spread lies and deceit about Putin’s illegal invasion of Ukraine,” although no examples of falsehoods or deceitful statements from RT or Sputnik were given. — RT

What risk free option though? Ukraine in NATO would not be tolerated by any Russian leader, not only Putin, the question is, is it worth invading the country to this extent and causing so much damage? I think most of us would say "no". — Manuel

Russia's Ukraine invasion may have been preventable
The U.S. refused to reconsider Ukraine's NATO status as Putin threatened war. Experts say that was a huge mistake. — MSNBC

In September Yushchenko’s health began to fail, and medical tests later revealed he had suffered dioxin poisoning (allegedly carried out by the Ukrainian State Security Service), which left his face disfigured. — Britannica

During the tumultuous months of the revolution, candidate Yushchenko suddenly became gravely ill, and was soon found by multiple independent physician groups to have been poisoned by TCDD dioxin.[141][142] Yushchenko strongly suspected Russian involvement in his poisoning.[143] — Wikipedia,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Independence

Since the Soviet Union’s collapse, the pace of change has varied from one Post-soviet country to another. Some, such as Belarus, have slowed down and tried to hold on to their Soviet heritage; others leapt as far forward and as quickly as possible. The Baltic states and the former Warsaw Pact countries shrugged off their Soviet past and took steps to integrate with NATO and the EU in the early 1990s, completing the process by 2004 – just before Russian imperialism began to reemerge. Unfortunately, Ukraine and Georgia had not yet completed that path by then. Both were left outside the Euroatlantic community, and both later became targets of military aggression by Russia, at the cost of lives and territory.

The NY Times says they've lost seven generals now and somewhere between 7 and 15 thousand military deaths.

Apparently the Russian offensive is being managed from Moscow, so they keep making mistakes just due to the lack of a coordinating commander on the ground. — frank

On 5 February 2022, two anonymous US officials reported Russia had assembled 83 battalion tactical groups, estimated to be 70-percent of combat capabilities for a full-scale invasion on Ukraine. It was also predicted that a hypothetical invasion would result in 8,000 to 35,000 military casualties and 25,000 to 50,000 civilian casualties. It was anticipated by the officials that the possible launch window could start on 15 February and persist until the end of March, when extremely cold weather would freeze roads and assist in the movement of mechanized units.[181] — Wikipedia

But throughout this period, Ukrainians had not been aware of the size of the nuclear arsenal on their soil—Ukraine was effectively the third largest nuclear power in the world at the time—nor had they considered the high costs and logistical problems of nuclear divestment.

The deterrent value of the nuclear weapons in Ukraine was also questionable, as Ukraine would have had to spend 12 to 18 months to establish full operational control over the nuclear arsenal left by the Russians.[9] The ICBMs also had a range of 5,000–10,000 km (initially targeting the United States), which meant that they could only have been re-targeted to hit Russia's far east. — Wikipedia

It also wasn’t clear if Ukraine had operational control of the weapons or whether Moscow retained the launch codes.

I consider the development of Russia as a free and democratic state to be our main political and ideological goal — Putin

United Kingdom Full Democracy 8.54

France Flawed Democracy 7.99

United States Flawed Democracy 7.92

Russia Authoritarian Regime 3.31

Ukraine Hybrid Regime 5.81

I still cannot get over how completely, totally, utterly garbage this f — StreetlightX

My job [in Syria] is to make it a quagmire for the Russians — Isaac

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise:Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

Brzezinski: It isn’t quite that. We didn’t push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

My view is simply that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is unjustifiable, unwarranted and fundamentally criminal. It has resulted in thousands of deaths already, massive destruction of cities and homes, and the displacement of millions of people. That is not 'western propaganda' nor is the war a consequence of western foreign policy meddling - it came about solely because of Putin's resentment at the demise of the USSR and his vain attempts to restore elements of it into a greater Russia. Every so often I will post something in this thread to register that view. That is all I wish to say, and I have no intention in becoming dragged into these interminable circular arguments which this thread seems to generate. — Wayfarer

Towards the end of his life, he was even offered the chance to become the second president of Israel but respectfully declined. The first president of Israel, Chaim Weizmann, stated that Einstein was “the greatest Jew alive” and wished him to be his successor. However Einsten, who was 73 at the time, and not even an Israeli citizen, cited old age, inexperience, and insufficient people skills as reasons why he wouldn’t be the proper choice.

It has resulted in thousands of deaths already, massive destruction of cities and homes, and the displacement of millions of people

- it came about solely because of Putin's resentment at the demise of the USSR and his vain attempts to restore elements of it into a greater Russia

It's tiresome to hear people complain about a solution when there's no alternative solution presented that is better. If you want real-world solutions you might need to be a bit more pragmatic. — Christoffer

All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations. — UN

Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll. — UN Charter

What exactly are you talking about? Are you saying a promise should be made, but with no intention to actually keep it? — baker

At one point in 1968, Westmoreland considered the use of nuclear weapons in Vietnam in a contingency plan codenamed Fracture Jaw, which was abandoned when it became known to the White House — Wikipedia

Fracture Jaw was a top-secret U.S. military contingency plan[1] in which General William C. Westmoreland sought to ensure that nuclear weapons would be available for use in the Vietnam War. Planning began in 1968 and included moving nuclear weapons into South Vietnam so that they could be used on short notice against North Vietnamese troops.[2] In spite of moves towards activating the plan, the project was abandoned in February 1968 when it was discovered by the White House.[1]

  On 27 October 1969, Nixon had ordered a squadron of 18 B-52s loaded with nuclear weapons to race to the border of Soviet airspace to convince the Soviet Union, in accord with the madman theory, that he was capable of anything to end the Vietnam War — Wikipedia

Although both Moscow and Hanoi did not show any reaction or impact of Operation Giant Lance, the uncertainty of Nixon's nuclear power posed a significant threat.[4][8] As Nixon was socially recognised as a "madman", the risk of Nixon's continuous nuclear threat towards Hanoi was undermined by the anti-war sentiment on US home soil.[10] This implied to Hanoi that the US did not wish for further war, or risk of nuclear warfare.[10] The heightened fear of nuclear warfare brought upon a shared parity of nuclear avoidance across all participants of the war.[3] Neither participant willed a military confrontation that would escalate to that level, exemplifying the significance and extreme measures of Nixon's "mad" actions in social perceptions at the time.[3] — Wikipedia

Only in a democracy can you complain about your own government without fear of reprisal.
— RogueAI

You can also play Scrabble. With equal effect. — Isaac

But people can please continue to say that Russia is no worse than the US when it comes to nuclear weapon threats

people really think, with a straight face, that they are self-governing in any way, shape, or form. — StreetlightX

An American horror story: that a peace deal is reached and there is no more war. — StreetlightX

America wants dead Ukrainians, — StreetlightX

Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men’s views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organised, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it — Name will be revealed later

Where it concerns France, just look to two countries north. It still has plenty of problems but it's already a lot better than France where it comes to democracy. — Benkei

Dictatorship naturally arises out of democracy, and the most aggravated form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme liberty.

Plato — Plato

Americanism, also referred to as American patriotism, is a set of United States patriotic values aimed at creating a collective American identity, and can be defined as "an articulation of the nation's rightful place in the world, a set of traditions, a political language, and a cultural style imbued with political meaning".[1] According to the American Legion, a U.S. veterans' organization, Americanism is an ideology, or belief in devotion, loyalty, or allegiance to the United States of America, or to its flag, traditions, customs, culture, symbols, institutions, or form of government.[2] In the words of Theodore Roosevelt, "Americanism is a question of spirit, conviction, and purpose, not of creed or birthplace."[3]

Americanism has two different meanings. It can refer to the defining characteristics of the United States and can also signify loyalty to the United States and a defense of American political ideals. These ideals include, but are not limited to independence, equality before the law, freedom of speech, and progress.[1][4] — Wikipedia

David Gelernter argues that America is not secular at all, but a powerful religious idea—indeed, a religion in its own right.

Gelernter argues that what we have come to call “Americanism” is in fact a secular version of Zionism. Not the Zionism of the ancient Hebrews, but that of the Puritan founders who saw themselves as the new children of Israel, creating a new Jerusalem in a new world. Their faith-based ideals of liberty, equality, and democratic governance had a greater influence on the nation’s founders than the Enlightenment. — Amazon Books - David Gelernter

idealistic fighting faith it has become, a militant creed dedicated to spreading freedom around the world.

If America is a religion, it is a religion without a god, and it is a global religion. People who believe in America live all over the world. Its adherents have included oppressed and freedom-loving peoples everywhere—from the patriots of the Greek and Hungarian revolutions to the martyred Chinese dissidents of Tiananmen Square

Gelernter also shows that anti-Americanism, particularly the virulent kind that is found today in Europe, is a reaction against this religious conception of America on the part of those who adhere to a rival religion of pacifism and appeasement..

A far-right battalion has a key role in Ukraine's resistance. Its neo-Nazi links have given Putin ammunition
Analysis by Tara John and Tim Lister, CNN

Updated 1445 GMT (2245 HKT) March 29, 2022

CNN teams in the area at the time reported Azov's embrace of neo-Nazi emblems and paraphernalia.

The battalion still operates as a relatively autonomous entity. It has been prominent in defending Mariupol in recent weeks.

In the not-too-distant past, Azov's leadership openly espoused ​White supremacist views and cultivated links with similarly minded groups and individuals in the West.
In 2010, Andriy Biletsky, now leader of the National Corps, the Azov movement's political wing, reportedly said his goal was to "lead the White races of the world in a final crusade," according to the Guardian.

You want a violent revolution in Russia with blood pouring in the streets? — boethius

This is the usual route to democratisation. Someone concentrates all or a lot of power and, what goes along with that, is that no one in the second echelon has despotic ambitions.

And, Putin as a "dictator" is a caricature; Putin still needs to work within a political system with lots of actors and even democratic process. Certainly has concentrated power, but Putin's power within Russia is simply not comparable to Kim's power with North Korea or Xi's power within China. — boethius

Certainly not the typical actions of a "despot", such as Sadam Hussein who had his generals executed for retreating from a unwinnable suicidal battle. — boethius

You mean, you were smart once? — Olivier5

They didn't take my advice ... but who knows, maybe they will next time. Luckily, since I live in a democratic society (at least the aristocratic population of a larger "democracy" Athenians would actually recognise) where I can affect policy, I'm able, indeed, to advise politicians and bureaucrats directly and perhaps affect their thinking for the better — boethius

Somebody controlled by the FSB, I would guess. — Olivier5

Ukraine has said it would adopt neutral status - one of Russia's key demands - in return for security guarantees, its negotiators have said.
Neutral status would mean Ukraine would not join any military alliances, such as Nato, or host military bases.

The proposals would also include a 15-year consultation period on the status of annexed Crimea and would come into force only in the event of a complete ceasefire, Ukraine said.