The antinatalism vs. natalism debate can be resolved if we can actually calculate the probability of someone being happy/sad with life. The math will speak for itself I believe. — Agent Smith

Irrelevant. It's not about what the stakes are, it's about what is at stake.

People will generally do something they value highly, even if the chances of success are very small.

And they will refrain from doing something they don't value, even if the chances of something going wrong at it are very small.


What you're describing is the mentality of gamblers, ie. people who don't want to decide on a matter, but use various ways to distance themselves from contemplating the morality of an action.

I think your neo-liberal hyper-individualism has been quite well expounded. I have no problem with the logic of your conclusion, given the premise that we are all selfish bastards who ought have no obligation at all to look after each other. I think it quite satisfying, in fact, that if one posits such a culture the logical conclusion is that it ought to wipe itself out. — Isaac

But on the other hand, there are the tribalist pro-natalists who only look out for their own tribe/family and who feel no obligation at all to look after those outside of their tribe/family. Many people are like this.
This is a natalist culture that wipes out others, outsiders and their families or tribes. You think that's a win?

Are we really coming down to nothing more than that the antinatalists want to be able to morally judge others but don't want others morally judging them?

You get to judge us for our actions, but your inaction is off limits and whatever your reasons are must be assumed good. — Isaac

But many natalists are doing the exact same thing. Just look at the severe judgment with which the antinatalists on this forum are being met.

What gives us the idea we have a right to make such a decision for someone else in the first place? — Tzeentch

Self-confidence, a "lust for life".

The decision to procreate is always one of force recruiting. — schopenhauer1

But people who procreate don't typically seem to see it that way. What do you make of that?

I think suffering is inherent to life. It even seems to be inherent to happiness (does happiness still have meaning without suffering to contrast it to?).

I genuinely cannot imagine what a life without any pain looks like, and I wonder if it wouldn't make the whole ordeal more meaningless? — Tzeentch

One of the core problems in these discussions is the usual failure to distinguish between hardship and suffering, and instead conflating them.
Poverty is hardship, but it does not necessarily entail suffering. Breaking your leg is hardship, but it does not necessarily entail suffering.

More of the antinatalist goalpost shifting. — Isaac

*sigh*

Like I said more than once, I'm not an antinatalist.
I'm trying to bring some balance into the discussion. I'm critical of both the antinatalists as well as the (pro)natalists. If it seems I'm siding more with the antinatalists, it's because the charges against them are sometimes extremely biased and hostile. Which is strange, given that they come from those who claim to love life or at least deem it worthwhile. How is it that someone who presumably loves life tells others to kill themselves??

How are we to judge what matters morally - intention or outcome? Pick one and then we can have a discussion about how it relates to antinatalism. Keep shifting which depending on the argument and discussion become impossible.

I'm saying that there are ways in which some antinatalist arguments make sense. Such as in terms of the quality of intention.

But it would create a person whose existence would bring enormous benefits to the other humans already in their community. — Isaac

Except, of course, if the child is of the wrong skin color/ethnicity/socioeconomic class, has a disability, is one too many.

You keep ignoring this.

Because it makes us feel good. It's the pleasure of a clear conscience: "I didn't cause harm to anyone." For some people, it's one of the highest pleasures there is.
— baker

Do you think people would still feel that pleasure on a planet empty of all human life bar them? Would they look around a fell good that they're causing no harm? — Isaac

Some certainly would.

Personally, I doubt that, and what little information can be gleaned from isolation studies does not yield any evidence of contentment at having caused no harm.

Most studies in human psychology are done on college students (many of whom major in psychology) and who participate in those studies for credit points toward the final grade. So that's one set of reasons for being skeptical about those studies being universally applicable to all humans.

Secondly, psychology studies tend to assume that all people are essentially the same; that nurture, acculturation are only skin deep. And that there is only one normal way for humans to respond to a certain external stimulus.

For those who hold those assumptions, there is nothing that would detract them from doing so ...

By it, the simplest justification for having a child is that it will do more to improve the welfare of one's community (including the future child) than not doing so would. — Isaac

Except, of course, if the child is of the wrong skin color/ethnicity/socioeconomic class, has a disability, is one too many.

You keep ignoring this.

Yes. NU is as bizarre a ethic as any. Why would we eliminate harm with no-one around to enjoy their harm-free life? — Isaac

It's about the quality of one's intention. The one thing one always has to live with.

What have you to say for the group of people who are genuinely miserable as a result of their parents' choices, and for whom it can be said their parents' choice did go against their interests? — Tzeentch

That they

need to kill themselves asap. — 180 Proof

Getting the ball rolling is ultimately the parents' choice and no one else's, and if they must conclude that many things will be out of their control, then on what basis will they justify their choice? — Tzeentch

Having children is an act of faith, an act of confidence: The prospective parents have faith, are confident that the universe will prove to be a welcoming place for themselves and their children.

Refusing to have children can sometimes be seen as an act of capitulation, defeat, a loss of faith, a giving up on the whole project of existence.

In order to feel alive, many people feel they need to pass on life to others. This can be done by propagating plants, breeding animals, or, to make the lifeform as close to oneself as possible, produce children.

The actual problem is how to balance out the dog-eat-dog mentality with a life-is-good mentality.

A problem philosophers sometimes face is that they cannot come up with a viable alternative to the ordinary, or at least cannot show that their alternative is better than the ordinary.
— baker

Could be. 'The unexamined life is not worth living' resonates with some and doesn't with others. If you don't share that impulse and you are not exposed to examples of philosophy that pique your interest, why should you care? — Tom Storm

Ordinary people are in the position of power, so why do they play the victim?

Is there evidence that philosophy is of benefit to individuals and how would that be demonstrated?

If all you've ever eaten is cold pizza and you're closed off to the possibility of eating hot pizza, then the benefits of eating hot pizza cannot be demonstrated to you.

From my experience, there are many variations of an 'ordinary life' that do not necessarily involve a dog-eat-dog value system.

Describe three.

Do you have a view on where the boundary between reflection and 'proper' philosophy might lie? What I mean is, there are many people who reflect on their lives and purpose and values, without ever reading or learning philosophy - when does a partially examined life become actual philosophy?

When one stops whining and being silly.

A problem philosophers sometimes face is that they cannot come up with a viable alternative to the ordinary, or at least cannot show that their alternative is better than the ordinary.
— baker

Not sure what you mean. It seems you're referring to what artists/novelists do. — Jackson

To illustrate with an example:

I live in a once rural area that is undergoing rapid suburbanization and gentrification. Many new people are moving in, and the town is developing an anonymous, hostile, tense atmosphere that is typical for cities. The new settlers tend to look down on the old ones, they don't speak the local dialect. For the most part, they don't greet when one meets them in the street, not even neighbors. Material wealth is what matters the most. The preferred form of dealing with any problem in the neighborhood is to call the police, to sue. Twenty years ago, this was unthinkable, and instead, people tried to talk things over, or, more frequently, acted with consideration first, so that many problems didn't come up at all.

I think the quality of our lives has dramatically diminished, despite all the new fancy houses, all the new asphalt, concrete, infrastructure. The sensibility and consideration in relationships with other people that were once the norm are now becoming alien. One now has to walk on eggshells at all times, and live in constant fear of the nasty things the new neighbors will do.

Philosophically, it's hard to make a convincing case for why the old way of relating to people is better than the new one.

Normative according to whose norms?
— baker

Moral norms. — Bartricks

The question was about _whose_ norms, not what norms.

On the grounds of what should one person's moral norms be more relevant than another person's moral norms?

Indeed, you may be right, unfortunately. The fact that very significant impositions are taken for granted as fair and just, possibly shows this mentality. It doesn't thus make the impositions acceptable. It just indicates that it is harder for most to get. Not a problem of soundness but epistemology. A blindspot in ethical reasoning perhaps. — schopenhauer1

It comes down to you vs. them. And they are clearly happier than you are.

I see you've been reluctant to frame this as a matter of "my opinion vs. their opinion". You seem to be trying to argue from objective/absolute morality (which you represent and (some) others don't).
This discussion seems to have to do with antinatalism, but equally with more general issues of discussion, epistemology, and normative ethics.

But why come here and try to convince others not to have kids because of your own bizarre interpretation of life? — Xtrix

Why fight the antinatalists so much?

Why are we reducing harm when there's no one around to benefit from the lack of harm? — Isaac

Because it makes us feel good. It's the pleasure of a clear conscience: "I didn't cause harm to anyone." For some people, it's one of the highest pleasures there is.


See also ahimsa for a more explicit take on the matter:

Ahimsa (Sanskrit: अहिंसा, IAST: ahiṃsā, lit. 'nonviolence'[1]) /.../ is an ancient Indian principle of nonviolence which applies to all living beings. It is a key virtue in the Dhārmic religions: Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa

Besides the Nicomachean Ethics, these (more or less contemporaneous) works come to mind as proponents of secular morality: Confucius' Analects, Plato's Euthyphro, Epicurus' Letter to Menoeceus, Epictetus' Discourses ... — 180 Proof

How are these not religious??

Each of these works out of a very specific metaphysics system respectively that are alien to the average Westerner. Perhaps this makes it so easy to overlook them, but they're there, and they're essential for the respective moral system to be intelligible and experienced as actionable.


And the OP question was:

I'm not asking whether morality can be justified without religion. I'm asking whence the idea that it can or should be. — baker

In short, I don't think you'll find much, despite the references. — Manuel

But surely Lacanian theory is about _something_?


Found this:

The medical agenda for reducing or eliminating symptoms is at complete odds with Lacanian therapy. Emotional suffering, in this regard, demands understanding by and for the patient alone. Implicit in this suffering lies a passion and desire that eludes direct linguistic expression, yet may be knowable from recognizing the limits set by language. Herein lies the neurotic dilemma of speaking the unspeakable to another who is likewise a divided self.

/.../

It is important to reiterate that the focus of treatment is the patient in relationship to others. This position is in contradistinction to those forms of psychotherapy aimed at altering psychic structures such as the ego and its defenses or in working toward the targeting of specific symptoms. Lacan adopted an epistemological stance consistent with systems theories. From this position, a patient’s psychic conflict arises from an effort to preserve sanity in the context of living among others.

https://www.psychstudies.net/how-lacans-theory-can-be-helpful-in-psychotherapy/

But what does this have to do with Lacan?

I edited the OP with additional information.

So why does the specter of Chidi/Hamlet in that ivory tower hang over philosophy? — Srap Tasmaner

It hangs there insofar a philosophy doesn't propose to have the final answers.

The other thing that comes to mind regarding the OP I can't quite articulate clearly yet, but I can so far summarize it as follows: one either lives by the 48 laws of power, or one thinks there should be more to life than that, and then uses philosophy to find out.

To be "ordinary", one needs to live in a very small world, have a small mind, have a dog-eat-dog heart. Many people live this way, and they seem to do just fine.

A problem philosophers sometimes face is that they cannot come up with a viable alternative to the ordinary, or at least cannot show that their alternative is better than the ordinary.

The weakness of your and @schopenhauer1 's line of reasoning is that it requires far more compassion and mercy than people usually have.

The other weakness is that it requires that people be not seen as objects, as things over which one rules. In contrast, people usually see other people as things, as their underlings, as beings to be ruled over (hence they have no qualms about procreating, or having abortions).

So your AN arguments are not fit for this world.

I'm asking you what you make of the fact that people are able to procreate (some people, at least; the ability to procreate is not a given).
What moral implications does this fact have, according to you? — baker

None. People are able to do immoral things. — Bartricks

Think about it. What does it say about the universe that people can do immoral things? What is more, they can do things that some people consider "immoral", and they are nevertheless happy and suffer no ill effects. For example, people can kill, rape, and pillage, and live happily everafter. Doesn't this strike you as noteworthy?

Like I say, you don't seem to be appreciating that this is a normative issue.

Normative according to whose norms?

On the contrary. I have tried to make sense of my predicament by turning to religion. It failed.
— baker

I'm sorry to hear that. Did you dive into the text to get the root of the issue? — Moses

Of course. More below.

I think we can certainly make meaningful observations on our mental health.

Don't forget that the State owns your body. Literally.

My mental health has certainly improved since starting on the Bible. This is mostly just a solo endeavor now. People just need something to ground them. If you're not grounded well you're just going to be screwed.

From what you've said so far, it seems that what you actually have faith in is your own ability. Not in God, not in the Bible, but in yourself.

I'm unconvinced by scripture, as long as I see it as a matter of my own choice as to whether to believe what it says or not. Whether the Bible is true or not, whether it is the word of God or not is too fundamental to be a matter of my own decision.

Others defend the thesis that the killed themselves as an act of honour.
The second thesis, I completely believe it related to Japanese commanders. They did Seppuku as an act of honour towards the emperors for not winning the WWII. — javi2541997

In traditional Japanese culture, there is also the concept of rebirth tied in with suicide; there, suicide isn't seen as the total end of one's existence, the way it is usually seen in secular Western culture.

Extreme unending agony. — Bartricks

That requires belief in one's eternal damnation. — baker

I do not see that. — Bartricks

Extreme unending agony is possible only in a scenario of eternal damnation. In most other scenarios, death of the body is taken to mean the end of suffering.

And that's why religions typically condemn it. It is, I think, primarily out of a concern to prevent someone harming themselves

I'm not so sure that religions' inention is that compassionate.

People tend to treat others as if those others don't really exist, as if they are merely shells with no inner life, other than the one stipulated by other people.
— baker

I do not. Is this projection? — hypericin

Look at the way people usually talk. They typically use you-language.

Conservative society LOVES pregnant women, it perpetually pumps out propaganda that exalts them as ideal women. — _db

This is too general.

There's a lot that goes unsaid, but is expected to be understood in that propaganda.
Namely, that the pregnant woman should be old enough (and not too much), happily married, materially well-situated, in good standing in the church, healthy, with not too many children already.

The problem with Christian propaganda is precisely those things that are unsaid, that are taken for granted, that are tabooed. It's part of the Christian culture of public secrets.

Right-wing women are the class traitors par excellence - willing to masochistically sacrifice their sisters at the altar of phallocracy, just to get the meager privileges and honors bestowed upon them by the patriarchs. Collaborationists and cowards to the core, right-wing women fiercely cling to their masters, and jealously despise any women who has the courage to live for herself. — _db

What sisters? Christian women don't consider non-Christian women to be their "sisters".

Either that, or you're not listening to them when they tell you that they believe that human life begins at conception and they believe that it's required that the embryo and then developing fetus be protected as any other human being. — Hanover

Like with so many things, religious/spiritual people tend not to practice what they preach when it comes to sex and procreation.
I remember a Catholic man saying, "I don't let my religious beliefs get in the way of my sex life."

Many Christian women use contraceptives and have abortions, just like other women, except that those same Christian women sometimes preach that it's wrong to use contraceptives and have abortions. There is a culture of "don't ask, don't tell" among Christians about this, so one can only learn about the reality of Christian life by living among them, instead of relying on what they say in some official capacity.

At some point, the duplicity becomes too difficult to navigate, though.

I also don't know what evidence you have that women consider pregnancy oppressive. I think many find the whole process hugely rewarding. — Hanover

Certainly not when the pregnancy is the result of a rape, or by "the wrong man", or at the wrong time.

To take the position that the OT is the literal and sole source of truth runs you head first into the problem that the OT advocates stoning and other terrible acts. If you choose to creatively interpret those problematic verses, I question why you accept your own interpretation but not of the ancient rabbis.

What I really hear you saying, however, is something more innocuous, which is that you're troubled by the idea that much religious doctrine is obviously man-made, so you want to hold to the notion that the Torah, at the very least, is a reliable, untainted, authentic statement of God, unmitigated by the imprecise hand of man.

Can't help you there, though, because it's not. — Hanover

To use your term, at least Sisyphus isn't thirsty then, with all those water boys catering to him.
In other words, with the above line of reasoning, you've joined the lines of secular humanists, existentialists, etc.

The phrase “pro-life” pertains only to the abortion debate, not to other matters. — NOS4A2

And a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, so great minds are against abortion and in favor of capital punishment.

I don't see mental health as a secular/atheistic concept. I see it as a human one. Mental wellness. — Moses

Sure. But as long as you live in a secular country, your mental health is going to be assessed by secular/atheistic standards. You don't actually have the feedom to declare yourself mentally healthy on your own.

Perhaps if one first believed in the Bible, and only later became afflicted with a disability.
But having a disability first, and then trying to cope with it via adopting a religious narrative that was until then foreign to one doesn't seem like a viable course of action to me.
— baker

You see things however you want; it's not your life at stake. You don't have that task.

On the contrary. I have tried to make sense of my predicament by turning to religion. It failed.

Yes in terms of how one ought to frame their disability, I believe the exodus dialogue is uniquely special. You could frame a disability any number of ways, most of which are toxic.

But from what you've said so far, it appears that you're framing your religiosity in a solitary, isolated way, and it's fully dependent on remaining that way. Are you a member of any organized religion?

It's not my interpretation — Tom Storm

You framed it that way earlier on.

and your assuming that actually Nazi's actually followed their ideology even in adversity.

In WW documentaries, I have heard of suicide letters from them that give me reason to believe that they in fact did. In those letters, they said things like, "I cannot bear to live in a world ruled by an inferior race".

I also had a friend whose father was a real Nazi from WWII. I got to know him. I have reason to believe that these people would rather die, even by their own hand, than live under the rule of those they deem inferior to themselves.

Sure they haven't killed themselves but how's their mental health? How do they view their own condition and place in society? That's the real question.

How healthy are they, mentally? IMHO the exodus narrative is the best one for mental health. — Moses

"Mental health", as assessed by secular, atheist psychology/psychiatry?

IMHO the exodus narrative is the best one for mental health.

Perhaps if one first believed in the Bible, and only later became afflicted with a disability.
But having a disability first, and then trying to cope with it via adopting a religious narrative that was until then foreign to one doesn't seem like a viable course of action to me.

Can you provide direct quotations?
Your interpretation is not in line with Nazi ideology. It's certainly an interpretation in line with what many people _wish_ that the Nazis would think and feel, or what many people believe that the Nazis _should_ think and feel, but that still doesn't make it the case.

I would actually certainly be dead. Suicide. — Moses

Yet there are people with a speech disability who don't believe in God, and yet seem to be doing just fine.

Belief in God isn't necessary in order to cope with a disability.

At the end of the day, it doesn't even matter whether there's a perfect secular moral system (even it was "objective"). Even if there was, why should anyone care? — Moses

It does matter, so that people can direct their lives best.

Spend your time how you see best fit.

Except that it's often not clear what that is; people sometimes wonder, sometimes they are deeply perplexed, about what that would mean to "spend one's time how one sees best fit".

Unless one is very fortunate, the set of moral principles that one was raised with will probably sooner or later be challenged, or even proven counterproductive, so that one will end up in a moral crisis. And then one will possibly try to resolve that moral crisis, such as by reading various philosophical and religious texts and discussing them.

Personally I basically have to believe in God otherwise I would probably be dead. — Moses

How do you know that?

Until you can demonstrate -

1) which god is true;
2) which understanding of that god is true;
3) which religion is true;
4) what that god wants;
5) which holy book is true;
6) which interpretation of that holy book is true

- you don't have a reliable basis for moral behaviour. What you have is a claim coalescing around a series of subjective interpretations, in search of a totalizing meta-narrative. — Tom Storm

But in order to make such a demand for demonstration, you're already working out of a totalizing meta-narrative.

IOW, you're already decided which god is true, which understanding of that god is true, which religion is true, etc.