Amazing disconnect indeed.

Specifically with respect to the murder charges for Derek Chauvin, I think there's more reason to assume he should be charged with 1st degree murder.

First of all, the manual of the Minneapolis Police Department states that neck restraints and chokeholds are basically reserved for when an officer feels caught in a life-or-death situation. But Floyd was handcuffed and obviously unarmed by the time Derek put him in this hold. So he should be familiar with the manual but nevertheless chose a method to subdue Floyd (how much subduing does a handcuffed man need?) that wasn't meant for this situation. There was no imminent threat possibly excusing him to forget or to act in the spur of the moment and even if there was, once Floyd was subdued the life-or-death situation passed and he should've changed what he was doing. He didn't, while having ample time to do so.

Second, he was being held like that next to a police vehicle. Why wasn't he transferred into the back of the police car during those first 6 minutes (before he became unresponsive). There was a clear alternative available.

Third, there were three squad cars, so presumably 6 officers at the scene. If he felt threatened or if he was panicking, why didn't he ask for assistance? He didn't ask for help, of course, because he had it under control. Refuting any chance for him to claim some level of panic or fear.

Fourth, the ambulance was called specifically to help Floyd. While it was underway it went from code 2 to code 3. Derek, being the person physically closest to Floyd, was absolutely aware of his deteriorating condition and did fuck all to help him.

Fifth, bystanders warned Derek multiple times Floyd was unresponsive. He still didn't let up and still didn't help Floyd.

With so many instances of being able to (re)consider his actions during those 8 minutes and 46 seconds and the possibility of asking for help from fellow officers or moving Floyd to the car, the continued stranglehold using his knees became premeditated during the course of those 8 minutes and 46 seconds.

I was thinking that "black lives matter" really is lowballing it. Black lives are sacrosanct just doesn't have the same ring to it, I suppose.

But you like authority and order. Why are you complaining about rules being enforced on you? Fall in line.

Centre-right.

If you have a far right party and a centre right party, you don't have a leftist or leftish party. It's just that you have a reference frame where anything right of fascism is experienced as left.

Hillary a leftist? What a joke. Go away Chester, and educate yourself.

Why should we care about people acquiescing to injustice or those actively defending it?

I'm against violence if society has a system that allows for the peaceful enforcement of justice and fairness. If it enforces injustice and unfairness, violence becomes an option and sometimes a duty.

Good. Most of those who live there didn't give a fuck other than maybe signing a change.org petition and then sleeping soundly again. For years.

Yes, which gave the impression you got it and then you got back discussing looters and violence as a problem.

For whom?

I've read the entire thread including your comments. You're missing the forest for the trees with your looters and insistence on peaceful protest. It's not the real problem and it's not going to be anytime soon.

Right and the real problem is — Marchesk

Try again and find the right way to finish that sentence.

Order that metastatises injustice is preferable above no order? I think that really depends on who you're asking and who's losing from that injustice.

French revolution was misplaced because it destroyed order? US independence the same?

Order is preferable above anarchy only If that order is conducive to justice and fairness. If it's not, it needs to be changed. Possibly through violent anarchy is other tactics don't work.

So despotism, feudalism, oligarchies and communism, are all fine and dandy because they provide order?

Order is better for whom?

Certainly. It's not hard to see with respect to the US. But I understand you're more a "befehl ist befehl" kind of guy.

oooh... Big boy. I'm not praising violence, I'm praising righteous violence. There's a big difference.

Right. So the political praxis and rules made blacks powerless. Violence to demonstrate they actually do have power (massive disruption of society, capital costs) is a good methodology to enforce change.

I don't live with that fear because I support virtue and justice but I can understand a xenophobic right winger like you gets worried.

What's politics for?

From that great Conservative thinker Von Clausowitz that those on the right seem to forget:

Violence is the continuation of politics by other means.

Considering Trump's reactions in the past I'm not convinced he has what it takes to deal appropriately with the current issues. He's dealing with :

1.tanking economy
2.a pandemic
3.riots
4.fascist cops and broken justice system
5.China taking the piss out of him
6.Twitter taking the piss
7.Russia taking the piss
8.Msm and other twitterers taking the piss

I think it's 5, 6, 7 and 8 are the types of things that set him off if the last couple of years of something to go on, leading to possible escalation. I'm pretty worried tbh.

Thank you captain obvious. At no point have you set out what relevant differences exist that makes the statistics you use a valid comparison. They're wrong and Trump is an imbecile when it comes to the pandemic. Anyway, we can't expect a sycophant to take facts into account. Next subject.

Well, the Chinese are having a field day with the riots in the US and the police crack down on them as an excuse for their actions against HK.

You really didn't read the original reply did you or the last where I state "all things being equal"?

Do you have an argument other than stating the opposite? I already explained by example how a small country will come off a lot worse in the short term than a large country. The virus spreads at more or less the same speed so in the short term, all things being equal deaths per million will be higher in smaller countries. Mortality rate is therefore uninformative until such time as herd immunity starts to kick in - in which case you're going to start to notice difference in quality of health care.

This is just ridiculous. You picked one that's obviously wrong and I explained why. I didn't even offer the right measure in my reply so accusing me of selecting one to suit my political agenda (as if I even have one!) is just stupid. It's good to know you're politically motivated, I suppose.

dwarfed — Chester

By all estimates it's about 3 times as large as the consequences of no deal for the UK. I wouldn't call that dwarfed by any measure.

My only difference with you is that I think the EU have been played very well by the UK government — Chester

The choice of words alone demonstrate you have little to no experience in negotiations. If you want a long term relationship, regardless of what it's going to look like, "playing" the other party is not going to help your own cause. Zero sum games are inane and a lost opportunity every time it's pursued.

Death rate and mortality rate are not a measure for this. See : https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/402318

The EU has been waiting for over two years for the incompetent English government to get their act together and explain what the fuck they wanted. There was an agreement that got voted down several times. Then the UK backpedaled on earlier commitments. If anybody is making sure deadlines are missed you don't need to look beyond the pond.

But seriously, nobody in the European member states gives a shit about the UK anymore. Either a deal happens within the framework of the earlier commitments or it doesn't. Nobody in the EU seriously thinks a no deal Brexit will be the fault of Barnier or his team.

It's nice to see though that the Conservative media is already insulating the Conservative party from criticism and fools lap it up like kittens drink milk. Good riddance.

Many countries have done better, ergo, Trump did a terrible job.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/30/minneapolis-protests-journalists-teargassed-george-floyd

The number of incidents with reporters surprises me. Is this just a result of the type of reporting? For instance, does HK police perpetrate similar levels of violence against reporters, accidental or not?

Let me help you with your reading comprehension skills again.

I really don't want us to get into a situation where we're going, you know~ where we do this and then you do something bigger, and then you know, everybody's got to go back and forth and everybody's got to be the tough guy here, you know?

Translation:

I really don't want Russia and the US to get into a situation that will escalate, you know?

And please make sure that its uh - the idea is, be - if you~ if you have to do something, do something on a reciprocal basis, meaning you know, on a sort of an even basis. Then that, then that is a good message and we'll understand that message. And, and then, we know that we're not going to escalate this thing, where we~ where because if we put out- if we send out 30 guys and you send out 60, you know, or you shut down every Embassy, I mean we have to get this to a - let's, let's keep this at a level that uh is, is even-keeled, okay? ls even-keeled.

Translation:

Please make sure that if Russia has to do something it's on a reciprocal basis (he even explains what reciprocal means for you!), eg. even basis. That would be good and a message we would get. We would THEN know that Russia and the US are not going to escalate.

Summary:

Please don't escalate. If you don't, we get the message and we won't either.

Glad that that's cleared up. So why were the charges dropped? Investigation number 3?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/media/judge-napolitano-says-officer-charged-in-gorge-floyds-death-should-be-charged-with-second-degree-murder.amp

Even a Fox commentator thinks 2nd is more appropriate.

It was worse than I thought with the Floyd killing. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/30/video-timeline-george-floyd-death/?arc404=true

Even after an ambulance was called, code 2 raised to 3, after bystanders warned he was unresponsive, that asshole still kept his knee on George in total for over 8 minutes. That's premeditated in my book, especially where it concerns someone who's supposed to be trained in the use of force. 3rd degree charges are a slap on the wrist.

Another thing that I noticed is the number of police involved. There's an escalation that doesn't seem warranted by the circumstances.

You can't tell fact from opinion, so your assessment that the left thinks it owns facts is worthless, baseless and silly.

If facts destroy right wing talking points, cry me a river. :razz: