https://thephilosophyforum.com/categories/16/reading-groups

Latest news from the Netherlands is that an expected 3% of the population has antibodies against the coronavirus. That meas about 500.000 people in the Netherlands. If that's true it would be a mortality rate of .64%, which is in line with earlier estimates from the Lancet study I shared before.

It also appears some people who have been infected with Covid-19 are not immune afterwards.

I would suggest a reading group here, but Im sad to say someone else would have to run it. Im not really good at moderating all this tribal behavior. I always found I could rely on other people to do that before, but now it seems there isnt anyone left who can do that, everyone's got sucked into this 'they are wrong, what fools they are, and how right I am jajajaja' thing. — ernestm

There's a reading group already that you can join. And online discourse just isn't discourse 99% of the time. Especially in politics. I stick around for that 1%though.

You're both fulfilling social roles. You give a compliment, the receiver thanks you. Social theatre concludes. Everybody feels better.

"Indian poor cannot afford a lock down" - heading off today's online newspaper in the Netherlands.

I guess that will be another abject lesson soon about the extent of democracy in a country still living its caste system (and I really mean abject not object in this case).

And yet the weight of evidence is still that it was a natural cause.

I also fail to see the relevance really. As if having a lab and animal testing are illegal. The subsequent cover up by China would be an issue but totally expected - like any country they don't air their mistakes publicly.

If I have a virus with spread 2.4 per week and in one country there are 2 million people and in another 10 million. Where doing nothing is the worst you can do both don't do anything and have a patient zero at the same time. They both have 2.4 infected after a week, 5.76 after 2 and 13.8 after 3 etc. Etc.

They are both doing as badly but deaths per million are totally different. Capice?

So the US is doing an order of magnitude worse than the Netherlands. Thanks to Trump not doing shit despite being advised to do so by Fauci.

Oooh. We got an answer we didn't like so let's have another investigation. Let's do the same with Trump shall we?

Hypocrisy again.

For example, the much touted healthcare systems of Europe, often held against the American system as far superior, are not fairing much better when put to the test in this crisis. The notion that we must risk our livelihoods and put ourselves on lockdown to keep them from collapsing is damning, in my opinion. — NOS4A2

More stupidity. The quality of healthcare doesn't affect outcomes where it concerns a virus we don't have an effective treatment for. Universal healthcare is always better for a simple reason: risk mutualisation is cheaper. So whatever quality you're paying for, you'll be paying less than any option that isn't universal.

By any measure the US healthcare system underperforms: life expectancy, infant mortality, unmanaged asthma, unmanaged diabetes, heart attack mortality, hospital admittance for preventable diseases etc. etc.

How a country fares depends on the policies enacted and how fast. Since it spreads at the same rate regardless of which country we're talking about, the country with the most infections and most deaths will have done the worst. At this time, due to all the variation in testing capacity, methodology and qualification of deaths, any comparison is nearly impossible to make. We can be pretty sure that for modern Western countries the USA, France, Italy, UK and Spain fucked up in greater or lesser extent. Although I'd be willing to forgive the Italians since they were hit early when very little data was available. The fact it was that terrible there probably has saved a lot of lives in other European countries as it was a wake up call for them.

No, it isn't because the person asked to investigate it already concluded that they were justified in their investigation and he had that information. So it doesn't change a thing and isn't news. The FBI was made aware so they were aware (and probably took that into account in their assessment) but the Steele dossier wasn't the only lead. George Papadopoulos opened his mouth first in March 2016. The Steele dossier is from June 2016 and later.

So yeah, as usual you fail to see the forest for the trees.

It's good to see you so unforgiving about failures. Oh wait. :rofl:

The hypocrisy is just too funny since you lack any ability at introspection to see how utterly ludicrous it is coming from you.

From the December report that concluded the FBI was justified in its investigation. So it's neither news nor important.

Is it true the 1200 USD cheques were delayed because Trump wanted his name printed on it?

Breitbart's comments section.

Whatever problems the US may have, I don't think they were exposed or made more evident by this crisis. The US numbers are better than many and fared pretty well comparatively. I don't give it a pass for any errors, but it's reponse hardly gives concern that anything systemic needs changing other than a laying out a specific protocol that should be followed for future similar events. — Hanover

It really is too early to tell how countries did because policy who to test carry rather wildly. The Netherlands only tests severe cases, healthcare workers and people who died. Our deaths is a very accurate figure, but our infected isn't. The latter is probably similar to Germany's.

The only country I suspect has really accurate data is South Korea.

The answer is no. Although blood can have a viral load and therefore a Covid patient shouldn't be donating blood, it is in such low concentration and bound to the blood that for you to inhale it and get an infection requires you to snort it.

Is there CV in that blood? If course! — frank

No.

News of the EU collapsing are grossly exaggerated.

The Netherlands and other EU countries refused to subsidise economic bailouts of Italian companies if Italy refused to get its debt and economic policies in order. All of them offered to give money to cover medical costs without any strings attached.

Italy has flaunted the EU budgeting rules for years and it has no buffer as a consequence. It needs aid because it hasn't adhered to EU guidelines for years and this causes the high interest rates on Italian bonds. Coupled with the high debt it cannot afford bailing out companies like the Netherlands and Germany can. So that problem is of their own making.

If they want money for economic support, the other EU countries are still prepared to do that but not without strings attached.

The idea that solidarity means you can't demand they finally start adhering to previous agreed rules is false and in fact would be disastrous for the economic union in the long run as it would create a precedent for no member state to ever follow agreed rules.

Then send a PM next time. Its a public forum remember?

That comment made no sense.

It's not just the death rate. It's the number of people requiring hospital care and intensive care and for how long. Flu and related symptoms resulting in intensive care usually lasts a few days. Covid-19 is regularly 2 weeks.

It would overload the system even with a death rate similar to the flu.

This crisis has obliterated the credibility of the scientific community for those who were already skeptical, especially to the extent that scientists are used to form public policy. — Hanover

How so? Most scientific bodies warned of the dangers of a pandemic in this specific case very early on.

I'm sure the numbers from certain countries aren't correct (China, Iran) or incomplete (the Netherlands) but the picture was clear even for me (a layman) end of February beginning of March.

isn't that we ought to reconfigure the way we maintain our hedonistic lifestyle, but instead to recognize there are higher goods than hedonism. — Hanover

Doesn't this still imply reconfiguring the hedonistic lifestyle? If we want a cleaner world we should consume less...

Or if we want to avoid pandemics we should take a cue from the Japanese and stop hugging, shaking hands and kiss for greetings.

Or we can learn from the South Koreans and be done with privacy.

That means loans from the federal government worth up to 2.5 times the firm’s monthly payroll that will not have to be repaid... — Baden

Curious. That doesn't sound like a loan to me.

So, all Asians are unfit according to you?

Watched it and missing the point apparently! :lol: :chin:

Nice short though. Thanks.

Too bad you're not living a 100 years from now for that motto to work in your favour.

The Democratic incompetence on display. If you can't win from Trump after this corona fiasco you need to disband.

What's going on with France? I thought they were in lock down early as well but the death toll is still so high.

What amazes me is that the US is so polarised that Republicans actually think Trump is doing a good job with regards to Corona.

Palliative care at home is possible in the Netherlands. It beats dying alone. Some older people in the Netherlands opted for it.

Cool. Good luck.

The personal tragedies are terrible. There are good reasons now not to go to the hospital so that at least your last moments can be with your family.

Well, that's one country that's learned from this.

We had a weekend everyone went to the beach despite the clear advice by the government and experts to stay home. That was in the same week everyone applauded the health care workers in the evening from their homes. My neighbour who is an anesthesist said to that :" Everyone who went to the beach should've raised their middle finger at the health care workers instead".

The next day a law was passed that allows police to fine people.

Personal responsibility is all well and good when other people's lives aren't at stake. In this situation not so much. The risk is too abstract when a people see .2% CFR.

How often do i need to get lucky to make you a believer in my predictive powers?

As predicted: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/398284

Maybe I am the new Nostradamus! :yum:

From the same article :

This is not actually the case.

The European Commission has proposed a programme to protect jobs and workers affected by Covid-19 to the tune of €100bn (£85bn; $107bn).

It also announced a €50m aid scheme for Italy to provide medical equipment. The European Central Bank has promised a €750bn stimulus package to help keep the eurozone afloat. — Article

The discussion is about the method of financing and what conditions to attach to any funds released above and beyond what the EU is already making available. The wealthier EU countries aren't against helping Spain and Italy in principle and they will help, it's a matter of how. This is why the "corona bond", eg. the much maligned euro sovereign backed bond is actually on the table as an option when a lot of countries had been against it before.

Meanwhile, goods and services are being shared; Germany is taking care of French, Dutch and Italian patients and now that the Dutch have it under control we will be able to take part of that burden as well in the near future.

Since they're sovereign states though, the comparison with the USA is totally irrelevant to begin with.

Due to shortages we've been asked to donate all masks and gloves to hospitals. Shortages that are now exacerbated by predatory practices in the market by several players. It's turning ugly.

This is proof they didn't take it seriously. According to the report the USA had all the means to combat a pandemic most effectively and yet it (and the UK) turns out the worst of all Western countries so far.

First of, what we've done in the past isn't reason to continue doing it but I can imagine you're in favour of reintroducing slavery as well on that basis.

Second, the Mexican flu is also racist, it's called the swine flu.

Third, Zika, West Nile, Hong Kong, Middle-East don't refer to ethnicities.

The Spanish flu didn't originate in Spain.

Russian flu is from before the term racism originated.

So that leaves Asian flu in a time when we had apartheid in South Africa and Rosa Parks refused to sit in the back of a bus.

Based on the majority of those names the Wuhan virus would've been in keeping with naming usage.

But then, this flu already had a name (as did the swine flu) and this attempt at rebranding is indeed racist and politically motivated to divert attention and shift blame.

Look it up on worldometers.info