That's a very insightful assertion. I've never thought about it before. If human beings are animals mimicking sentience, they're effectively intelligent animals - and not solely in the biological sense. — Aryamoy Mitra

Hmmm, yes. I guess I would say that "intelligent animal" is as far as we have gotten by mimicking being human (i.e. knowing what it means to be human (honour, integrity, love, dignity, etc) and playacting the part). We are far more. We just have to realize it. Well, I guess more exactly, we need to become fully aware of the animal nonsense we have endured for millennia which causes us to only mimic a sentient perspective.

The industrialists being those perpetual optimists — schopenhauer1

Wow! Not what I had in mind. I look at the industrialists and their descendants as utterly pessimistic. "This is the best we can do and it's important, even if we wreck the world doing so." They perceive it as important because we can do it and there is no difficulty in doing so. Much, much more difficult is seeing beyond the obvious to perceive the real situation, which is not at all as it seems.

If we didn't create our own reality — Thinking

We certainly create our own reality to some degree and everyone's reality is different - to some degree.

I'm certain all life possesses them to some degree — Pop

I wouldn't go so far as to say all life has emotions (I'm thinking of amoeba, bacteria, etc here). But, certainly animals and such.

I've often thought about that movie and book. In the movie, the alien states that humanity has such magnificent dreams ... and nightmares. That has always stuck with me. I'd kinda like to eliminate the nightmares and it seems completely possible to me.

Do you want to share credit for that quote? — Aryamoy Mitra

Ha! Sure. The difference between me and Nietzsche is that I really don't think the human condition, as it is, is necessary at all.

That's a very insightful assertion. I've never thought about it before. If human beings are animals mimicking sentience, they're effectively intelligent animals - and not solely in the biological sense. — Aryamoy Mitra

Exactly. We have equated intelligence with sentience. That is a dangerous misconception that leads to all of the awful ramifications of our current human condition. Being just highly intelligent and not evolved in other sentient ways that fulfills the sentient perspective is a disaster that has been going on for three thousand years. Hmmm, maybe another way to put it is that we have leaned into the intelligence aspect of our evolution and avoided everything else that would make us really, fully, completely sentient.

So then it must be true for if it wasn't then it would be paradoxical and therefore it couldn't exist. — Thinking

Paradox of paradigms?

why isn't misanthropy a justifiable philosophical resolution to the fact of human existence? — Aryamoy Mitra

If you change the word "existence" to "condition", I would agree. I think that using the word "existence" underestimates the nature of sentience.

Why isn't a misanthropic stance consistent with an existentialist one? — Aryamoy Mitra

I think misanthropy is completely aligned with an existential viewpoint because existentialism makes the error of thinking that we exist for not purpose. I think humanity will find, some day, that there is much more to a sentient perspective than just continuing to act like an animal mimicking sentience.

Can't one believe in the truth of human existence, dissociate it from its fact in the real world, and then champion an amelioration of its vices? — Aryamoy Mitra

I think that is exactly what we have been attempting to do for more than three thousand years to no avail - because we remain an animal mimicking sentient behaviour.

It seems most likely to me that any "advanced civilizations" that don't come to grips with their heightened status; in other words, a sentient race that cannot clearly differentiate themselves from the predecessor species of the planet; in other words, a sentient race that continues to act like an animal; will destroy itself. Those advanced races that do survive are way beyond the destructive, brainless tendencies of their predecessors. They look on at the antics of the malformed semi-sentient races that have not attained discriminating, unobstructed views of existence and waits for them to implode.

Your premise makes sense to me. It helps explain the deepening divide between the right and the left that started, at least as far back as the industrialists and romanticists. As things get worse, the optimistic have a more difficult time holding on and the pessimists revel in accelerating insanity.

Yeah, I'd just like humanity to get past all of the boulders of nonsense paradigms that are absorbed in our youth. What a train wreck it causes regarding everything.

I guess I've always thought of emotions as an extension of our heightened awareness.

I should have said, "conversed". It's like everyone comes on, says something, is ignored, and someone else comes on and says something.

There are rare exceptions but even those are weird. Someone came on the board not long ago, asked a question, got a few answers from a couple of members (yes, I was one). After awhile, the querier came back on said, "thanks, that's enough. I've got my answer".

It could be information from past lives or it could be thoughts themselves that already exist on another plane of being that is partially tapped into at a young age. — Thinking

Exactly.

even a few months after completion I can see blunders. — Pop

Hahahahaha! Yeah. I know the feeling.

Are you equating sentience and emotion? I equate sentience with heightened awareness. I think our normally jumbled emotions as a race of beings is predicated on the blur that is applied to our sentient awareness that we have yet to overcome. I was just mentioning paradigms and blurring of our sentience in another thread. This is running parallel. We've got so much nonsense stuffed in our heads from childhood that we can't see a true vista yet.

Thanks for the insight on replying.

You've hit it right on the head with that statement, although not pertinent to the Tao directly I think that the knowledge of how we think shapes our experience is very empowering wisdom. Even if it wasn't true it would still empower us as human beings to make it true. — Thinking

Paradigm-breakers. The worst thing in the world for me is paradigms. They blur our sentient perceptions. We get fed so many nonsensical paradigms as children before our critical thinking defenses kick in. Aaarrrggghhh!

We may know many things from practice in past lives. — MondoR

Hey, I'm big into reincarnation but that's not what I'm talking about here. Briefly, on reincarnation, I think it is the only philosophy of life that makes you want to clean up your act. If you're coming back into this life, you'd damn well are going to try to tidy things up as best you can before this one is done. Also, I started learning piano at an advanced age only because of reincarnation. I might get a jump on the next life! In general, reincarnation makes living fully to the last drop make sense.

So, yeah, in this case, though, I was really referring the idea that, in some people at least, something just clicks regarding a certain aspect of life. Someone gets a passion for something and there's no stopping them. Or, you notice something that should be complex but it all just makes sense for no apparent reason.

Wanting to exchange ideas

After bashing my head against The Tao for years, the only way I found to make sense of it was to read two different interpretations. That helped so much. Between the two, I could piece together what was being said. So, for me, it was an advantage not comprehending Chinese.

I don't think I could begin to describe what I learned. Very Tao of me.

As far as ultimate reality goes, maybe it has more to do with ultimate awareness. In other words, maybe life will reach a point at which it can comprehend everything. In another thread, I get into my fascination with the development of life on Earth. It has always moved toward a better awareness of what is going on. Though we have stumbled drastically in our comprehension of that which we have become aware since gaining sentience, still, we are on the next rung of the ladder of awareness. We just aren't very good (yet) at comprehending that which we perceive. So, for instance, ultimate reality would certainly have to comprehend all of time. That seems impossible to us. But, is it altogether impossible or is it just impossible for us?

delignate — ChatteringMonkey

Nice word.

One thing I want to try to tackle is the whole inward looking, ‘intuitive’ part of the Tao that is supposedly in us. — ChatteringMonkey

This makes me think of something that has always bothered me. We live by the rule that we have to learn something. I had an experience once that really made me question this. It was like the knowledge was tapped even though I had never had any learning in the area. An example of such would be piano play. One theory goes that it takes 10,000 hours to master any instrument. And, yet, there are savants that sit down at a piano and play like a master before they have ever learned anything about it. So, one way to interpret this from the point of view of The Tao is that we are hobbling ourselves by our own efforts to learn that which we should already know.

I don't want to get too far off into the woods, but some of the discoveries in physics, like quantum entanglement, Heisenberg principle and the double slit experiment seem to indicate that we create our own reality to an extent that goes far beyond anything we dare believe.

Thanks, Pop.

When I first read this thread, I was interpreting it as "I think, therefore, I am reduced". The sad thing is a lot of people out there would concur with that interpretation.

I was just cruising around the web attempting to find something of interest. Something besides the godforsaken news. I ran across this website and this particular thread and I was caught. "I am an evolving process of self organization." I like it. I've been on a long journey of attempting to pin down sentience and this thread really has a similar ring to it. In studying sentience, I had to spend a lot of time pondering the difference between humans and the rest of life on Earth. If you look closely, life itself is an evolving process of self-organization. We're just better at it than other life on Earth. Humanity's sentience has changed the game. It is no longer just a genetic improvement in self-organization. It is a conscious improvement on self-organization. Unless, of course, there is sand in the works, something that sets the conscious improvement awry.

As I ponder, I sometimes wonder about our wonder. I would go a step further on panpsychism. It is almost as if the universe desires to be sensed in all its wonder. Or, maybe it is a looser tie than that between an awareness and that of which it is aware. If you look at the progression of species on Earth, generally an improvement in species coincides with a fuller awareness of everything around it. Humans took it a step further than just awareness. Humanity is aware and it questions what is around it. That has caused all of our troubles - when we can't find satisfactory answers.

My apologies for not studying this board further before opening my mouth but, damn, intelligent conversation on the web? Will wonders never cease?