A preference about how people should behave. — Terrapin Station

So, does adding that it is a preference, make this a normative claim for how people should behave or a positive statement?

I don't know how you're reading me as suggesting something contra the is-ought problem. — Terrapin Station

Well, you did say that foundational emotivist stances outline "how people should behave". Not, that they do in a certain way. Which led me to conclude that you were claiming an ought for an is...

Does that sound more like what you were saying?

Foundational moral stances have to be emotional, because they're preferences re "how people should behave." — Terrapin Station

Not sure if this is correct. Hume outlined the is-ought problem, have you been able to overcome it?

Is the problem due to the feeling that you don't have control, or is it because you think that you have even less control of your life then what you think other people have over their life? If it is the first then it sounds like you have some kind of phobia with dealing with certain issues in life and the angst in confronting (or even thinking about confronting) these issues are overwhelming you much like any object that one has a phobia of. — dclements

I think you are right here. It is some phobia. I'm not sure what exactly a phobia of what. I think it has to do with wanting to live a life of ease without any hindrance in the form of responsibilities or duties to fulfill.

To be honest I had something to say when I first started writing this reply, but I think I forgot what it was by the time I got here. — dclements

Reminds me of: "Before I speak I have something important I want to say", by Groucho Marx.

Maybe reading dark humor demotivation posters or some Buddhism might help but then again they may not. I think many people just try one thing after another until they find something that works or at least until they get bored of doing that and merely digress into Hedonists and give up on any real purpose for anything. I'm not really sure how it is supposed to work. :P — dclements

What do you mean by hedonism? The usual connotation is someone that shoots up heroin every morning or such. Yet, in nature, I doubt you'd find many animals that actually behave this way, with purposeful intent to increase their hedonic impulse.

I guess in a way I mean you don't really combat them, you live with them. And through living with them they become less influential -- "combat" indicates something far too direct for something that actually works. It's a bit counter-intuitive, but seems to work for me. — Moliere

So, you are talking about coping here, I think. Yes, I suppose this is the only way to live with depression. I have started numerous threads about depression, and have come to terms with it as best I could. I mean, it sucks that I will be this way; but, there's only so many medications or therapies one can trial before coming to the conclusion that the issue will always be a part of you.

I agree, with the caveat that one also embrace one's reason toward the ethical. — Galuchat

Sorry to get back to your post so late, as I got caught up in a dialogue with I like sushi.

From my posting and knowledge hereabouts, I understand the issue as a complex interrelated dynamic between emotions and reason. But, I don't understand the details here. For example, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy can serve as a backdrop where Hume's sentiment towards reason being the slave of the passions, as not being entirely true, at least not on face value.

What are your thoughts about this matter?

Ah, okay! So the problem is then knowing where and when to ‘turn the other cheek’ and simply remain inactive? — I like sushi

Not sure about that. I mean, every country needs law enforcement officials. It's just that, in general, people get along pretty well with each other without said officials governing their daily affairs.

I don’t buy that “inaction is action” argument when it comes to morality - that is precisely, in my denial of morality itself! See what I mean? — I like sushi

Depends on your views of people in general. A cop once told me that in dire situations people can behave quite irrationally. But, such situations are quite rare, along with the fact that the Trolly dilemma is (in my view) a perversion of philosophy with extremist inclinations.

Anyway, before I attempt to go further, I am interested in what you are saying. Am I in the ballpark or not? — I like sushi

I think so. Before I posted this topic I was waffling over the idea as to whether to name the topic "Minimalism in Ethics" or the current title.

Is it correct that I take your “ethical” to mean my “moral” (regarding the OP)? — I like sushi

Well, I've always held the notion that the two are interrelated, even if I grew up in Japan and some other bloke grew up in Holland or the US.

If so then what kind of stoicism are you referring to? Is it something akin to the original idea of hedonism? — I like sushi

Well, I didn't mean to introduce any stipulative terms and meant Stoicism in the ordinary sense. I also see how one can conclude that this is akin to hedonism, yet, I don't think it is the right conclusion to be derived here. I don't think people are naturally inclined to be hedonists.

Well, quoting from that thread you explicitly say:

Note: I very much prefer to differentiate between “ethic” and “moral” in this way. ‘Morality’ being much more skewed toward the individual’s attitude and the ‘ethical’ being much more skewed toward the societal attitude (both of which we’re only ever partially aware at any given time - stretched out in a ‘tension’ of ‘convictions’ that make emotional experience navigable. — I like sushi

It's my understanding that the difference between the two is not due to innate differences, given that we all experience emotions to some same degree, perhaps barring sociopaths or psychopaths; but, due to epistemic concerns. Again, I addressed this point in the thread referenced above. Or to put this another way, what is moral is governed by what is ethical and vice versa, in a loop so to speak.

it is quite likely I still have no idea what the OP is getting at and if it is waht I;ve mentioned I guess the ball is in your court. — I like sushi

See my previous comment. I believe we can explore the issue further by the (normative?) distinction you are drawing between the "ethical" and "moral". I'm not quite sure where the scope between the two begins and ends in your line of thought.

Ok, I re-read that awesome thread again, and it seems to me that at the same time you're drawing out a distinction between the "moral" and "ethical", whilst also equating the two. Why is that so?

I believe everything I have to say on this topic, in repsonse to this OP at least, is here:

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/5768/ethics-morality-the-use-of-the-hypothetical — I like sushi

Hah! And you accuse me of black and white thinking. Good one. I'm not sure how to respond to that thread, as some impasse was reached in it.

If you didn’t understand the point of that, and still don’t, I can only suggest you readdress it. The kill a million and/or Trolley problem. If I remember correctly you were one of those that turned their back on those questions? - pretty sure I did a follow up explanation so maybe you did read my analysis of the hypothetical and its use (I’ll check later). — I like sushi

My position towards the Trolley dilemma you proposed a couple of months ago (start one again as the turnover rate is pretty high here) was that no sane person would be able to decide such a problem. I actually responded to this question of a thread of my own. Have a look at it again if you wish to.

So, you're basically saying that identity formation is motivated by optimistic thought or wishful thinking? And, those who look past the dissonance of pessimism are more fit to live?

From the first word to the last. I cannot make head nor tail of what your point is, if there is a point, or why I should care?

I cannot even find something to guess at tbh. Maybe the problem is mine as others have responded, either way I may be able to add something if you rewrite the OP in a shorter and more succinct fashion (perhaps with a question or two posed?) — I like sushi

Ok, I'll make it easy for you. I've long been bothered, as a wanna-be Stoic by this quote by Hume:

Reason is the slave of the passions in the sense that practical reason alone cannot give rise to moral motivation; it is altogether dependent on pre-existing desires that furnish motivational force. — Hume, On Reason

The whole OP is just a *footnote to that quote. Do you agree with it, why or why not?

As an autist, I'm in two minds about this. :wink: No I'm not. I can see no direct contribution that autism makes to philosophy. We have some traits that could help, just as they could help in many other areas. But assigning autism to most philosophers does seem strange ... and wrong. — Pattern-chaser

I think, going along down this line of reasoning, that autism can be useful in some way to promoting the required fixation or focus that a philosopher needs to penetrate a deep issue that requires insight and intelligence. Though, that's about you can take this idea towards, the rest just sounds funny.

Some thinkers now believe that reason is yet another driving force, in and by itself. — god must be atheist

Which ones? Are you thinking of Kant here or some other philosopher? It's my understanding that most philosophers nowadays are some cognitivists or neo-empiricists.

Well, it's strange that you phrase things this way, as if autism is the supreme reason what drives a philosopher. But, then again, I'm pretty sure Wittgenstein was a high functioning autist or had Aspergers along with an extraordinarily high IQ, which could be seen as some aid in his philosophical endeavors, which most philosophers are enjoying to this day.

Doesn’t make sense to me because I don’t understand what you’re saying. — I like sushi

Let me know what you're grappling with and I'll try and clarify.

Thanks.

Are you including reason in your emotionalism? Or, where does reason come in? — tim wood

Well, yes. Reason under Hume's dictum is secondary to the emotions. It only serves as an instrumental faculty of our desires or wishes or passions.

I'd like to focus on the idea of always killing yourself "too late". — schopenhauer1

I think it's most akin to learning that the free will is an illusion, according to Cioran, and, the only response to such a realization is the absurdity of one's fatalistic existence.

There's also the fact that the quote pretty much addresses the metaphysics of Cioran's philosophical system, which is fatalistic and deterministic. Again, it's been a while since I read my Cioran...

True, has absurd elements, but what is he saying about suicide? — schopenhauer1

I can't recall where I'm getting this; but, this quote brings out the prominence of the Will with respect to the world. In that, the Will is futile and ever-changing with respect to the world, which is absolute and domineering in imposing situations/circumstances that lead one to want to commit suicide.

If I remember correctly, that quote intended to convey the absurdity of existence. In the same manner as to how one ought to approach his philosophy.

Yes, great quotes. What a great man, Marcus Aurelius must have been.

Buy an industrial sewing maching that sews leather (off ebay for super cheap) and start making the world's weirdest shoes.

Works for me. — frank

Sounds like you found a niche in the shoe market. Lol, good luck!

Yeah, my issues with dopamine go pretty deep. As a child I had some pretty bad ADHD, as an adult now I have ADD-PI. I've tried numerous drugs to straighten me out; but, the only thing that I can safely take is now Strattera.

Sucks; but, it is what it is.

I certainly hope the Russians sold S-400's to the Iranians. The whole war on Iran strikes me as lunacy. One can imagine the intensification of the war on terror instilled in the minds of would-be terrorists in the future.

Star Wars. I want to see the next film. Sounds silly, but that's an example of a genuine thought I've had when contemplating suicide. — S

Ehh, thoughts. Aren't they all silly?

I'm sure I can make it to the next Star Wars film. :blush:

Immensely. This is probably the only place on the internet, where you can open up and try and form some coherent whole of what's going on. Laying down the negative thoughts helps a great deal and them combating them with rationality is helpful, to say the least.

Yeah, the thought seems to have subsided. It's like some form of twisted self-therapy, where they emerge and I have to start appreciating what I have or what have you. I don't know how else to put it. I suppose I need a girlfriend or something of that sort to keep me in check.

Rather than apologising I'd rather you dropped what I suspect is a euphemism. Thank you for your input, really? This is what consumer services tell clients they want to fuck off. — fdrake

Uhh, not intended as that. I gave you or myself or whatever the case may-be the impression that the problem was solved, which it hasn't, and hence, I'm backing off on the cavalier attitude to solve this issue as if it can be solved via an online forum, as you seemingly suggested, it just can't.

Ok, sorry for coming off awry. Thanks for your input!

A somewhat related question, do you spend a lot of time behind a computer? — Tzeentch

Yes, pretty much. Although, I have found this to be an issue as of late. Namely, the retardation of identity formation enhanced through too much online presence.

I remember reading some posts of yours where you mentioned that you were happy with how you lived your life with your mother. It seems to me that it is this whole prospect of moving to a different unfamiliar place that is making you feel down at the moment. — leo

Yeah, until my psycho-father decided that he wants half the house. I should be honest with myself, though, and can't say I should be surprised over what has recently happened. I mean, it was bound to happen eventually at some point. I guess, I just never wanted it to happen...

I mean, at the least I have a fighting spirit from my mom's side of the family, so things aren't dire. I'm seeking out ways to address this issue apart from isolating myself into oblivion.

There's "hope" speaking out once in a while.

How many random thoughts have popped into your head in your lifetime. How many do you remember? Make the bad thoughts one you forget. — 420mindfulness

Ah, but they do tend to leave a lasting impression on one's psyche. Tangled up garbage.

One of the things that I learned from my therapist, that scared the living shit outta me, was the notion that depression evolves as time passes by.

Now, that's some scary shit.

I don't mean to be a debby downer, but people without insight typically don't know where they lack insight. — fdrake

Then, you point it out for me if you care to. Is this a motivational issue or generic depression?

I'm going to assume both, so in that case what can be done about my lack of interest in games people play? This goes more towards my meta-sentiment of misanthropy and projection...

Thanks, man, I'll see if I can muster up anything and give it a skim.