"Linguistics is the scientific study of language" for example. — Terrapin Station

It doesn't appear to be self-referential in the same manner that "I love you more than words can say."

Is it?

I don't know if intentionality is a factor here, as in with "love"?

Well, sure, those are words, too. So then you'd say that any sentence about language, words in general is self-referential? — Terrapin Station

Well, sure. But, do you have any example in mind?

Not words in general? — Terrapin Station

Well, that includes the words in the sentence itself, no?

What part of the sentence might you take to be referring to the sentence itself? — Terrapin Station

In "I love you more than words can say", I'm assuming that it's the "than words can say" part. The words obviously being the words of the sentence itself, including all the words listed in a common dictionary.

Sentences don't literally "express meaning," you assign meaning to them. — Terrapin Station

Then, is the meaning of "I love you more than words can say." obtained from self-referentiality?

To post something philosophical, the sentence "I love you more than words can say." appears to be a self-referential sentence, is that true? It would be more appropriate to say something "I love you more than these words can say."; but, it appears to be self-referential by the general "than words can say" to my eyes.

Is it self-referential?

Alright then. — Baden

Thank you Baden.

It strikes me as casual barstool "philosophy" with no definitive answer that's likely to invite a lot of attempts at humour rather than being a serious philosophical issue that you're puzzled about.

But if I'm wrong and it develops in an unexpectedly positive direction, I'll move it back — Baden

Innocent until proven guilty? Let's give it a chance on the front page at least? Could invite some serious discussion about meaning?

Why was this moved to the Lounge? It's a legitimate question.

I see! Thanks.

I am reading The Republic by Plato. — Dagny

Hello, Dagny, we're reading the Philosophical Investigations by Ludwig Wittgenstein in this thread. You're welcome to start a reading group on The Republic if you want to. I'm currently too booked with other reading groups to be able to help out with such an awesome book as Plato's Republic. Best regards.

Ermintrude — unenlightened

What a lovely name for a cow. She must have been a smart cow. Moo!

I posted a topic some time ago "On 'rule-following'". If anyone is interested in delving into how we maintain, obey, and follow rules I welcome others to that thread.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/3317/on-rule-following/p1

Cool? — Banno

Very. :)

So, again essentialism rears its head.

Yes, and what more can you say? I'm lost again...

While there are those who say that existence in possible worlds must be treated in the same way as existence in the actual world, I am not one, nor, to my reading, is Kripke. — Banno

Then what are counterfactuals if not definite descriptions for events that could have happened otherwise?

@fdrake, could you please post the PDF of the paper? Quite interested in getting this started.

I asked before what it means for a counterfactual to obtain - to be true? — Banno

Somewhat circular; by, stipulating them. Metaphysics implies that there might be a possible world where they actually obtain. Hence, I think we should stick with possible world semantics instead of "possible discussions".

I don't know. Probably to kill time, and wallow around.

I like to wallow; but, I'm in a constant struggle to wallow less and philosophize more.

Oh well.

Perhaps there must be something that links a name to its referent; but it need not be a definite description. — Banno

And, here is where we get into metaphysics. How does the counterfactual obtain (or is instantiated) when saying Banno had eggs with bacon and cornflakes this morning because he was especially hungry?

But, "raining" or "to rain" is a verb, not a subject.

How so? Your getting close to "it".

Your question has been answered, the subject of that sentence is the weather conditions. — DingoJones

So, the subject is the fact that it is raining by the weather conditions? Is that what "it" is pointing at in the sentence; "it is raining"?

That's the subject of the sentence. — Terrapin Station

So, it's the 'rain' yes?

Riemann would be cool! — StreetlightX

Personally interested in that short paper. 15 pages are doable for my feeble mind and would be a good trial run on how to approach abstracta into intelligibility for us.

The subject is the (climatological) conditions outside. — Terrapin Station

What's that? the rain?

Read more Wittgenstein.

Though PhP happens to be my favorite philosophy text so I'm always happy to read what people say about it. — John Doe

Ooo, I thought you might like it. Didn't know it was your favorite. Phenomenology of Perception would be a worthwhile text to go over IMO. But, since you're already aquainted with it so well, then I'm not sure it's worth your time to go over.

What would interest you? For example, covering Phenomenology of Perception or an essay (e.g. Cezanne's Doubt)? — John Doe

You decide. I'm unsure yet.

I think starting with an essay would be a good idea to just get a feel for how these things work out in practice. I'm open to whatever you propose.

I think Merleau Ponty is interesting. I haven't seen his name mentioned on these forums for a long time. Let me know what you think about his works?

Awesomesauce @John Doe, I hope to participate in anything you set out on reading. I know you are on the graduate level tier so nothing but high quality from you. Depending on how you want to address who would be interested in what, I was hoping we could cover something less complex for the general population of this forum to understand (myself included).

What kind of works are you interested in? Phenomenology, linguistics, metaphysics, philosophy of logic?

That the Russians have leverage over the US President and the president is compromised like this is the most outstanding intelligence coup of all time. — ssu

The degree to which this has happened is still a known unknown. We don't know how much Trump is corrupted by Russia. I say we wait and refrain from judgements as to how influenced he is.

I’m not sure what “coming to terms with one’s diagnosis” entails, though. — Noah Te Stroete

Well, I was institutionalized in the military. It was a bitter pill to swallow for me that I couldn't become a soldier or repair ejection seats for the Air Force. I finally came to terms with my diagnosis sometime after this with the act of going on disability. For a short period of time I fantasized becoming a police officer; but, given my diagnosis, nope that would never happen. Entertaining fantasies I can; but, realize them I cannot.

I'm just saying reasons don't change anything because the term suicide is not justifiable unlike killing someone where self-defence is ok. — BrianW

Suicide can be justified in some way. But, if you have a family or other people that need you, then no, I don't think suicide is the right choice. There are alternatives to getting better.

I know how I’m supposed to think and behave. I just find it extremely difficult in practice. — Noah Te Stroete

I feel you. It doesn't bother me anymore that I'm different than other people. I guess I've come to terms in my own way with my diagnosis. That entails living with my mother and just sucking the suck factor in life up.

Yes. I’ve overdosed five times. — Noah Te Stroete

Oh, sorry to hear. I've been institutionalized and in hospitals myself quite often.

Do you think half the battle is just coming to terms (as harsh as they are) with one's diagnosis?

I don’t go to therapy either, but I am medicated. — Noah Te Stroete

Coming from someone that doesn't like going to therapy, I am intrigued why so many patients with mental illness find it hard to commit themselves to get better by going to therapy. Do you think it's akin to opening a wound that hurts?

I asked one of my group therapy counsellors if many people don't show up for therapy, and she said that it's true. I think this is restricted to males only given the way society perceives the need for men to look after themselves and such.

Oh nevermind @Noah Te Stroete, we talked about this in PM. Sorry, my memory is finicky.

Isn't self-destruction the very definition of suicide? — BrianW

I'm not quite sure. I think that suicide isn't the same as self-destruction. Might need some expanding on my part; but, it doesn't seem like that's the intent of suicide. The intent in most cases is the cessation of suffering or pain. That suicide is an act of ultimate self-destruction is a separate issue.