I’ve struggled with impulsivity my whole life. I’ve dealt with mental illness my entire adult life. — Noah Te Stroete

Has the impulsivity ever resulted in bad decisions? And, what kind of mental illness if you don't mind me asking? I struggle with psychosis (My p-doc tells me it's a psychotic disorder; but, I'm inclined to believe it's some schizotypal traits of paranoia), depression, and anxiety.

Patience is difficult when one is under a lot of stress. I have found that removing the stressors helps a lot, and where that isn’t possible, meditation helps. However, sometimes people are in very high stress situations that they can see no easy way out of. That’s when they need to find the courage to ask for help. — Noah Te Stroete

Why do you think it's so hard to reach out for help? Is it denial that one is incapable of taking care of one's self that is the barrier here? On a personal level, I don't like going for therapy. It's just uncomfortable asking for help, as a man. I don't like opening the wounds and going to talk therapy also. It's uncomfortable talking about one's issues.

I find that praying as a form of meditation, asking God (or the universe or your inner self if you prefer) for patience has been helpful to me. — Noah Te Stroete

Personally, given my adoration for reason, I take the stance that science may be able one day to address my issues better in the future. So, hope is as much an important factor in preventing suicide as much as being patient is.

Yeah. I mean, most people already know the possible consequences of their bad-habits or careless acts. Also think of drunk drivers who end up dead, it's just as much a suicide. — BrianW

I wouldn't go as far and say that self-destructive behaviour is tantamount to wanting to commit suicide. Just my two pennies.

Expanding on the ToM of a schizophrenic, I can say that schizophrenics have a strong tendency towards magical thinking and overdetermination of events. There's also a childish aspect of schizophrenia. Namely, (from what I've read), when psychosis occurs there's irreparable damage to the formation of one's identity. Often schizophrenics (if they're not extremely paranoid) display childish traits of immaturity. This is manifest in their inability to look after themselves.

Anyway, the ToM of a paranoid schizophrenic often resorts to very simplistic explanations (beliefs) for their surroundings and behaviour. These delusions of parasitosis or magical thinking are shortcuts for interpreting distressful thoughts. CBT would call these thoughts cognitive distortions on steroids.

So, basically, I would tend to want to analyze the rationale of delusions for a schizophrenic if you want to address their deficit in forming an accurate ToM about other people.

As a formerly diagnosed schizophrenic, (now that diagnosis has changed to psychotic disorder, although I have a tendency to become paranoid often), I have encountered readings on the subject of a social deficiency, flat affect, and reduced grey matter in the prefrontal cortex. My experience has been mostly oriented at strengthening my boundaries of perception. I mean to say by this in the manner of not getting into another person's head and what they think about me, which all too often occurs. It's difficult to shut out a mental image of a person as it is forming on the go during a conversation or by observing them.

Anyway, ToM sounds like a normative concept derived from what 'normal' people tend to think and interact with other people. It's confusing to me to propose a ToM on top of an already disorganized mind. It seems redundant to say that the ToM of a schizophrenic is different than the ToM of a normal person. Perhaps it simply means that the schizophrenic processes input differently than a normal person, which sounds about right to me.

Would you be able to expand on this concept, @rei?

In my dealings with depression and some suicidal ideation, what has helped me the most is realizing that emotions and feelings subside. What I have learned is to be patient with the thoughts and not act impulsively on them. Impulsiveness is really the nail in one's coffin. I don't know how one can learn how to be less impulsive or learn patience. It's a trait I suppose.

Any thoughts?

No, I mean people who kill themselves unconsciously through the many channels which are consequences of negligence, carelessness, bad habits, etc, etc. For example, people who develop liver problems through excessive consumption of alcohol and which leads to death. Isn't it suicide because it's self-inflicted. — BrianW

I'm still not understanding you here. Are you proposing that someone who unconsciously inflicts self-harm is tantamount to them slowly committing suicide?

As example, imagine asking a seven year old, "What is love?" The child may be brilliant, but they simply don't have the life experience to do a meaningful analysis of the question. The wisest seven year old would reply...."How the heck would I know what love is, for crying out loud, I'm only seven!" :smile: — Jake

Haha, I wonder how a child would respond to someone asking about suicide? What a daft thought.

So what is happening with a person who is going through this fixation will make one intervention smarter than another but the persuasion is not happening on the level of disqualifying a rationale.
I have had some close encounters with this thing with some family members and close friends and my experience is not a part of learning something like how to draw or shoot arrows. I know less everyday. — Valentinus

It's a matter of willpower to get better. The scary thing about depression from what I read is that as a person gets better the motivation to kill oneself rises. I don't know what to call this, some sort of SSRI syndrome where the depression is lifting and someone begins contemplating suicide with the new returning energy. I've never had a suicide in the family, and don't know any people who would want to do it as close friends. My only experience with it is from within my own head.

I think the best advice I could offer a suicidal person is the lesson of learning how to be patient. One of the highest risk factors contributing to suicidal rates is the degree of impulsiveness of a person. If one can endure or cope with the suicidal tendencies, then that's half the hurdle.

There's also another means at addressing depression. It's Ketamine, which is being researched and will soon become standard treatment for depression in the US. I'm quite intrigued by Ketamine and its ability to lift oneself out of depression. Just another good tool in the arsenal of the pill pushes I suppose.

I'm not sure that every name is a rigid designator for Kripke. Proper names are what he's dealing with... I think. — creativesoul

Yes, I'll settle with that. I might be wrong of course about every name being a rigid designator. Of course, some names can have empty referents. Like, Pegasus, or Harry Potter.

Assume he is talking about every name, for the sake of argument...

What do you mean "we're left with necessary existents that instantiate necessity"? — creativesoul

Well, what "structures the world" according to my reading of Kripke are necessary existents. That's all I meant by it.

It also seems that he's using modality(possible world semantics) as a means to argue this... — creativesoul

But, if every name is a rigid designator, then we're left with necessary existents that instantiate necessity. How do you deal with this?

But, I must ask. What has the Russian active measures campaign resulted in, which goes all the way back to the creation of the KGB and now FSB? That Trump got elected? America is experiencing an economic boom from fracking, and other economic factors.

In my view, the real threat is from China, if we're going to jump on the scaremongering bandwagon. The amount of IP theft and their mercantilist based economy is a force to be reckoned with. Trump is a sideshow.

Just a clarification. I am not thinking about suicide. It's just a hypothetical situation. I hope to gather all the answers to what one thinks about as the best argument against someone contemplating suicide.

I'd first ask, how old are you? — Jake

What's the purpose of asking that? Please elaborate.

How about unconscious suicides which lead to death through diseases and accidents which are consequences of negligence, carelessness, bad habits, etc. I think these are easier to address than a person who's already at the point of voluntary suicide after clear deliberation. — BrianW

You mean the unconscious desire to die? I suspect that they can manifest in those ways. But, suicide is such an act that instantiates all those desires into one act.

But if I tell you to fuck off, and then kill myself, have I told you to fuck off? — unenlightened

In essence, that seems to be the sentiment of a suicidal. Fuck off to you; the world, my family, my life, all my problems. Again, I am not suicidal, just posted a hypothetical situation here. But, the fuck off is stated in the act of committing suicide.

You could argue that everyone is God, that nothing else exists but You/God, that there is only You and nothingness. So You can only be You even if You try not to be either. — TWI

And get thrown into a psych ward for running around telling people I am God?

Just kidding. So, what's your best argument against suicide?

There's something comforting about wanting to become nothing. It has no qualities or properties that define it, apart from the lack of properties about it.

What are some thoughts about this property of nothingness that makes people want to become nothing?

I'm sure some suicidal people may as well be religious; but, simply don't care about going to heaven or to purgatory or to hell also. What do you tell the person that doesn't want to go to heaven or hell or to nothingness? Can any argument be made?

If it is you yourself that is unbearable, then I argue that that suicide is the opposite of an escape; contrariwise, it seals you forever into the unbearable being. This is why it is called the only unforgivable sin - if successful, it removes the possibility of repentance, and thus of redemption. One can change, and this is the gift of life. — unenlightened

But, surely you aren't the religious type from my ponderance of you. Or at least this is the hope of the suicidal person, that they become nothing or return to nothingness, the same nothingness that existed before they were born. That's the rationale as far as I can tell of a suicidal person. To become nothing.

No. It takes a surfeit of despair and hopelessness, and a deficiency of gut and balls. — Bitter Crank

How is suicide not a courageous act? I fail to see how someone wanting to commit suicide against everything life has to offer as not a determined and courageous act?

Suicide is cowardice. It takes bravery to stay alive. — Jamesk

It also takes some guts and balls to commit suicide.

We are the same person, Wallows. If you commit suicide you'll be killing me(yourself) without my(your) consent. — Nils Loc

Nooo! I have become a Nihilistic Locomotive too. Ahh!

Isn't 2D semantics focused on possible worlds? Why would "the best summary for TLP" involve possible world analysis? — Terrapin Station

Sorry, must have made a mistake in that regards.

Carry on.

There is some Russophobia in this thread. I don't see the point of disliking Russia. Rather we should dislike the current KGB infested leadership of Russia. I lived in Poland for a good while, and the Russophobia is very strong is post-communist states like Poland or the Balkan/Baltic states. So, whatever propaganda is being pushed by Russia, it's not on the airwaves in those states (Belarus being the exception given it's rosy relationship with Russia). In other words, they are well guarded already against Russia.

If you sit down and think about it, Russia only stands to lose from its current disinformation campaign. People can only be fooled so many times.

Instead of creating a ministry of truth, I think the money would be better spent on education and critical thinking. That's what worked during the '50s in the States, so why not try it again?

I definitely agree, so long as we understand psychology in the deep sense of the term - the sense of the term that led Witty to love Schopenhauer and Dostoyevsky, engage seriously with Freud, etc. - as opposed to being a mere set of subjective preferences, tastes, and inclinations. — John Doe

Yes, I've seen solipsistic and trite comments, like the following: "The problems of philosophy are psychological" - Pseudo-Wittgenstein or just made up. Analyzing a person tends to be much more complex than breaking down the self into three parts and trying to address each of their needs or beefing up the ego.

Well, I suppose this is the "two-in-one" of thinking, the fact that I can carry on a dialogue in thought rather than a monologue. — John Doe

Well, yes. We talk to ourselves every day. The whole point IMO of therapy is to form a new narrative we tell ourselves with small behavioural changes.

I think you're right about finding an expression of one's self through one's capacity to think. I'm not sure what I think of this - would love to see you expand on the thought. — John Doe

Well, given my dealings with psychology; dialectical therapy (talk therapy), CBT, logotherapy, reality therapy, even behaviourism to some extent... The main gist in my view is to create a new voice within your psyche. One of the first lessons of CBT, as far as I'm aware, is to role play a therapist with all the cognitive distortions in your mind. You then play talk-judo with yourself by writing down your thoughts and then addressing each one that comes to mind, in regards to the automatic thoughts arising. A lot of my affinity towards CBT or meta-cognitive therapy is derived from Stoicism, (big surprise). I have a lot of resentment towards Hume for calling reason the handmaiden of the passions when this is clearly not true. Perhaps, the most essential component in therapy is having a keen "ear" (so to speak) on what reason is telling us. Some people have this inner-"ear" more refined/tuned in than others and go on to become renowned psychologists. Some people have an inner voice shouting at them and reason is drowned out of the dialogue with one's self.

So, it's basically maintaining a healthy signal to noise ratio between competing voices from within our own head. Most of the time, medication quells the bad thoughts down (although calling voices "bad" or "good" really idiotizes the issue) It can be also the fact that we simply do not understand what is being said to us and we plead ignorance instead of putting in the effort to understand the other/different voice to borrow the term from care ethics.

My own feeling is that suicidal thoughts tend to be a much larger expression of how one lives a life - the way one copes within the local world one occupies - than a view one comes to through thought and internal dialogue. — John Doe

Or rather the final 'shouting voice' telling us something is wrong. Don't get me wrong, suicidal thoughts should be interpreted as a sign that things are not right. Though to "listen" to those thoughts too intently is a mistake and a blunder that has to be addressed through medicinal and cognitive approaches.

What's your favourite therapy technique? Mine has to be CBT (devoid of the behavioural component, rendering it as a metacognitive therapy along with Stoicism).

The opposite, though these words are used in such myriad ways that it might not be worth it to go to the bother of attempting to use the terms. — John Doe

Let's clarify then. To understand a person going through with suicidal ideation requires us to appeal to some inner voice. The only voice that stands out from the crowd is mostly reason. What do you think?

Bump

I know you're interested in Wittgenstein. I think there are some Wittgensteinian points to make here. If I wish to persuade you that your suicidal thoughts are a sort of error - to show the fly out of the bottle - it will depend greatly upon my becoming acquainted with you as a person and the sorts of reasons and motivations in virtue of which you're entertaining these thoughts. Philosophy as therapy. For a certain sort of person you might say: Go read Dostoevsky. For another: Get your doctor to prescribe lithium then see if you still want to debate the topic. — John Doe

I think, as a Wittgensteinian, the problems of people are mainly psychological or what we tell ourselves. It's a matter of identifying with a new voice in your head and listening to it instead of the incessant critic or what others would call a demon. Socrates talked about listening to his daemon.

Well, parroting what I just wrote in another thread. "Best arguments against my identifying as a man born in a woman's body?" I don't know, buddy. That's the sort of thing you can discuss, but I think you're bound to go awry if you think logic, reason, deliberation or dialectic will provide anything beyond clarification of what are essentially non-logical, non-rational global questions of how you cope with the world and your place in it. — John Doe

So, you don't think we can empathize with someone seriously and quaintly considering suicide? Only sympathize?

@creativesoul, waiting on you.

Pfff. Do some of the work for yourself. Consider it homework. — Banno

Point me in the right direction, kind Sir. What pages should I cover? I'm almost close to the end of the lecture I.

Nuh. Epistemology. — Banno

What kind of epistemology?

But arguing in this way is misguided since there is considerable (understatement) overlap. — Banno

Overlap with what?

If you are saying that chats involving modality are different to chats that do not involve modality, then, yes, they are. — Banno

So, do modal chats differ substantially from talk about what obtains? Do some philosophers restrict talk to things that only obtain. Is modal talk metaphysics?

Okay, so since I got that straightened out, what's next?

What do you mean by "obtain"? — Banno

I simply believe that the fact that it doesnt obtain in our world gives the possible discussion a different meaning. Be it epistemic, ontological, and even in some sense metaphysical.

So yes, it denotes Banno in the actual world and in any possible world in which I exist - including the one where I ate eggs. — Banno

But, it doesn't obtain in this world only a possible stipulated one.

The referential, "Banno" in "Banno ate cornflakes and eggs with bacon this morning" denotes the Banno in this world or in a stipulated possible world or is that irrelevant?

Then, had you eaten cornflakes and eggs with bacon this morning because you wanted a hearty meal also refer to that rigid designator in our world? What's happening to the referential component? Where is it instantiated?

Then, is Banno a rigid designator?

Knocking stuff off the table just to watch Banno pick it up again? — Banno

As a fellow wallower, you must understand that this is simply a thing we do.

But hang on - the referent is Banno. that's what is referred to by the rigid designator "Banno". — Banno

But you eating eggs and bacon this morning never happened. It doesn't obtain in our world; but, in some possible one where that may have happened. The referant exists in that possible world and not this one. So, again hurray metaphysics!