In regards to Brian's and CasKev's point about when to stop taking medication... Unfortunately, I'm in the same boat, as I have quit and tried tapering off my antidepressant, with a return of feeling, and that's important, feeling emotions. For the majority of time it was a mix of both feeling positive and negative emotions; but, since I've been on antidepressants for almost a good decade, feeling again was almost discomforting.

I believe there are other alternatives to the mainstay SSRI's, think Ketamine or rather novel drugs like NRX-1074, which I have been following the progress with great interest.

However, in this specific case, SSRI's seem to remove the high's and low's of affect. I've grown to like SSRI's due to making me a more mellow person and less passionate about... well most things.

I believe Nietschze also believed that art has the power to transcend The Will. However, he depicted this rather grotesquely in the form of a master-slave relationship.

Yeah, it's hard to expunge the criticism of selective reading when reading him.

The relation of humanity to the alien is one of total incomprehension and horror, and this is the mirror of the individual's relation to himself, and particularly for Kelvin, to his love. I can see why you like it. The inescapable self - beloved horror. — unenlightened

Yes, a very Conradian tale. The ending is superb with Kelvin deciding to live on the alien world. Redemption is also a strong theme in the story as Kelvin performs a form of banishment from society with that final decision. I suppose he could not come to terms with himself over the loss of his loved one. I should read the book also sometime, as I've heard many great things about the book also.

Yes, sleep for me is holy. I am infinitely entertained by my dreams. I have a suspicion that dreams are a sort of glimpse into the future, just in very small pieces. I've had countless deja-vu moments in waking life as if I experienced the situation already foretold in my dreams.

Oh, no, there's nothing I can do to repay you for the advice you've given to countless members throughout the years at the old PF and here. I'm just happy I could rationalize my feeling via this online forum and dialectical method. It helps tremendously to be able to sort through the multitude of thoughts and emotions swelling inside. Although, I do know you aren't a fan of the rationalization part it is essential to understanding the beast that depression is.

I'll watch 'What about Bob?' if you watch Tarkovsky's 'Solaris' if you haven't seen it already. Based on what I know about you and your past I think you'll find it to have a very personal message. I'm not a big fan of comedies, as I'm socially awkward and don't understand jokes that well. For the majority of time, you'd think I'm autistic in person.

Yes, I do like trees and plants. I figure a positive step forward for me is to learn how to play the piano. I think it would be a good outlet for some pent up emotions and such yad ya da.

I'm not in a terrible place, just rather my attitude is the issue. I have a roof over my head, someone that cares about me, and some other stuff that I should be grateful for.

I've also decided to switch my sleep and wake patterns. For some reason, I do better at night when everyone else is asleep and nobody to bother me. My mind picks up around 9 PM until daylight. I figure I can get more done during the day when I'm left alone at night to study or contemplate things in peace.

Do you mind if I ask a personal question? Are you depressed yourself or has that emotion ever 'infected' you during your working years while dealing with other depressed patients? If so, does it bother you? Depression itself does not bother me per se, just the suicidal thoughts. I figure to try and make the best of what I am. I've abused stimulants in the past; but, the artificial motivation is just artificial and my best thoughts are done when sober or in a state of semi depression. There are positives to being depressed also as strange as that sounds. I guess it's just another step in my psycho-evolution.

Suicide is rationalonly to the extent that we choose through a disjunctive syllogism — TheMadFool

Suicide is much more complex than a disjunctive syllogism. I don't think we need to trivialize the issue here with a simple modus ponens.

And, yes, though I'm not playing devils, advocate, here, suicide can be rational in some cases. In others, I don't see the argument from the sanctity of life as a viable alternative.

Again, if we're going to die either way, then one can choose when and how they want to die. The only cases where suicide is unethical is when leaving a burden on others behind with one's passing. Even in those cases, there are exceptions to the rule where suffering is greater than the continuation of life for others, and this suicide becomes morally and ethically neutral.

Is suicide selfish? Yes, in a way it is selfish; however, I don't think we've evolved to the point of being concerned for the welfare and lives of others to such an extent that suicide would appear morally wrong. If I were Mozart of some sort or gifted in some other regards and had something to contribute to society, then I would put more hesitation on the thought of killing myself. But, Mozart I am not nor a Bach for the matter.

There is really no choice for the stupid. The stupid shall suffer either way.

I know of two types of suicide, one's done out of passion and the other done analytically and with a plan. Both give the same result; but, it's the one done in cold rationality that bears the mark of making a self-determined choice.

The point of coercion is to rob someone of choice. — TheMadFool

Fine, have it your way. You're robbing yourself of your future (be it a depressed and unhappy one) by committing suicide.

It's still a decision, you can't take away the choice that one makes in their decision-making process.

This can also take months to years in order to achieve. — Buxtebuddha

Sadly, the issue feels that it needs to be addressed soon. I'll probably talk with my doctor to change my medication and see if I can register for a meeting with a therapist. Problem is, I've been to a multitude of therapists and I don't feel as though we've made any progress in terms of uncovering why the depression is there in the first place.

It won't help with the poison that may be brewing underneath. — CasKev

And, that's the issue I'm dealing with. I've studied CBT for a good six or seven years. It doesn't work for the root cause of the distressing thoughts.

I'm pretty sure it has to do with more than one thing, but I have no idea what each and individual factor is. I know that there are biological roots, but apart from that no idea. I did have a mental breakdown when I was 17. I thought the worse was over but seemingly that is not the case.

No, I'm asking you to analyze your life in order to determine whether or not your suicidal thoughts have an origin in the way you conduct yourself. — Buxtebuddha

I can't find an origin. It seems like something biological to me. I'm still confused about the origin of my depression and subsequent suicidal thoughts.

What you're really asking me to do is to repress the suicide thoughts. I can't repress them anymore. They're leaking out of me and causing me distress.

I agree, keeping it natural is still the best of all evils

I've made it this far but I wonder if I wouldn't benefit from some sort of medication. — darthbarracuda

The thing about medication, and if you don't 'need' it, then better live without it than become dependant on it. I might see if I can switch around some of the stuff I am taking and see if some newer medication might help.

That being said I think if we lacked psychological repression techniques and were perfectly rational beings we would probably all be lining up for euthanasia. — darthbarracuda

Yeah, I think that is true. I've heard hereabouts that depression is also a form of behavior that other animals feel also. Some birds will drown themselves if they lose a partner and primates also have behaviors similar to depression when confronted with duress.

When you ask who decides, you expose the division between one who feels and cannot cope, and one who copes but cannot feel. to talk about a defence mechanism is to separate oneself from 'it' the mechanism. The end of the depression is the end of the division - I cannot cope and I cannot feel, and yet I feel and cope. There is no other, no illness or syndrome or mechanism or illness or depression, or unconscious trauma,
it is all me. — unenlightened

My rationale was that accepting depression would seem to blur the line between the rational analytic mind and the emotional and emphatic persona. But, accepting doesn't seem to do much at all apart from giving in to the depression and laying in bed all day in hope that the tide recedes and other emotions take hold. There isn't much that can be said about depression apart from the fact that it sucks, and is very elusive and tricky in nature. Thanks for posting anyway, even though no solution seems within sight to pursue after, only apathy and angst.

EDIT: Given the rather bleak situation, I am trying to figure out how to live with the depression. I already take the happy pills along with some rather potent antipsychotic medicine. The combination leaves me rather dulled out; but, able to cope with the depression. I, however, see the futility in addressing the issue ad hoc, when it's rather a specific thing or issue. So to speak, to put a band-aid on top of another band-aid and hope the rumination and angst will subside. I wonder how long I can keep up this double band-aid on a festering and sore 'limb'/psyche.

I don't think the depression will ever go away; but, can't incorporate this aspect of myself into my self-image. I feel like an old man, while still in my relative youth looking for a way out with none in sight. Alright, end rant.

Mind you guys and gals, I also have schizophrenia (paranoid type), which makes my life all the worse.

Sometimes I have good days, and then there are bad days. I just feel depressed about feeling depressed. It's a self-defeating attitude and hard to cope with.

The issue doesn't seem to be related to discipline in my opinion. It's just a matter of repressed feelings from my understanding.

I think the Buddhist teaching of the impermanence of emotions is worth bringing up. However, if these thoughts are reoccurring, then I don't know what would help. Therapy takes time and often when one thinks things are getting better, the depression or suicidal thoughts return with a vengeance.

Is this a no win situation? That's what I'm feeling as of recently. Maybe I need to have more hope; but, it seems Sisyphean to be optimistic when those feelings return.

So, according to what you're saying, depression is a coping mechanism, and to get rid of depression one has to understand the reason why there is such a coping mechanism in place. Is that right?

If so, then how is it that depression is such a 'bad' coping mechanism that leads to thoughts about suicide? Or are suicide and depression two separate things? And who gets to decide what feeling they want to feel in the first place, as if depression is a defense mechanism, like a faulty thermostat?

I mean, it's a sad state to live in where most people who are depressed don't get better. What do you attribute that fact to?

So, do you at least develop some tolerance to those thoughts? Becuase, it really is a burden as people say.

Similar to 0 thru 9 there was a lot of breaking down and rebuilding involved in my recovery process. I believe the CBT based therapy really helped with discarding the negative self-talk and beliefs, and gave me the tools to stop the same sort of beliefs from redeveloping. — CasKev

My point is that the thoughts keep on returning and the hope that CBT might solve the thoughts did not come through. It's depressing that one has to live in a fortress and always be under siege by the negative thoughts.

While that might be true it still doesn't take away from the fact that suicide is a personal decision. If you want to say that all decisions are motivated by unconscious factors, then that's just redundant.

I understand, but it's not like I like being depressed. I remember waking up in my youth and being interested in the world or doing some things. Now, I wake up and just wait until I can go to sleep again. I am already in therapy; but, I suppose I am having high expectations or something as I don't feel as though it is helping me.

If peace of mind were an achievement, it would have to be the achievement of an unpeaceful, striving mind. But it is not an achievement at all, but simply what happens when one stops trying to make a delicious cake out of shit. — unenlightened

Then, are you advocating complacency? Because it is quite a burden to live with depression as you must know all too well based off of experience with the ill. I've already posted around here about accepting depression and learning to live with it; but, I feel that is a hard task to do.

I said that from individual experience. CBT doesn't cure depression or make it go away, as anyone with depression would hope. It only addresses the final product of a "botched"/depressed mind.

Let me know what were your difficulties? I seem to fixate on problems instead of solutions.

Just talking with myself online; but, I feel as if this were an issue in a deep-seated sense of cynicism and lack of belief in true change or lack of compassion. What is it?

Truth is a pathless land, as Krishnamurti would say.

I would like to highlight that these feelings towards the field of psychiatry, and subsequently psychology have stemmed from the outright stigma I have felt from being depressed in the past, to the point of going through the whole range of discomforting emotions that, that diagnosis entails. I have come to terms with my 'disorder' and hope to find some place in society for people with depression, anxiety, and what-not.

And he left six kids behind with this act. It's a tragedy for them more than anything else.

What about the next favodity adulterant of choice, being Cannabis?

How does it fit into this depiction of retreat from hyper-normalization?

For me, depression feels like it is rooted in the past, while anxiety has a future feel to it. — CasKev

This sounds like a perfect time to live in the present if you're disturbed by the past and future.

The worry and dread associated with anxiety is tied to expecting bad things to come. While the anxiety develops based on past experiences, it is very much forward-looking. — CasKev

So, is the horse leading the cart or otherwise? I mean, is the depression causing the anxiety or the anxiety causing the depression?

Basically I'm saying that we should view things like an existential crisis more like an animal with a broken leg then something which has no relation with the biological world. — Gooseone

Apples and oranges, or in this case a broken foot and clinical depression. Sure, both might not be in working order; but, determining when the mind/brain is back in 'working order' is still an unknown art. I mean, people can't or should not stop taking medication just because they start feeling better. With a leg, you know it is back in working order. With depression, the only thing you can put absolute faith in, is the placebo effect, which is self-generated and not external, like an antidepressant.

Here's an interesting article which I found in regards to the placebo effect.

The weird power of the placebo effect, explained.

Sorry for the delay in response, just that anything containing a reference to the placebo effect requires a lot of consideration. I hope to reply to your post, Gooseone and CasKev, soon enough.

Ok, here's the killer:

3.2.0.3 . A name means an object. The object is its meaning. (‘A’ is the same sign as ‘A’.)

So, nominalism or not? I think nominalism, yea?

I'm sorry, the previous is untrue due to the following proposition.

3.1.4.4 . Situations can be described but not given names. (Names are like points; propositions like arrows—they have sense.)

Now, if we think of pictures as names of situations and states of affairs, then that would seemingly close the loop of a nominalistic interpretation of the Tractatus.

Here is a proposition in support of my assumption that the Tractatus professes a nominalist tone.

2.0.2.4 . The substance is what subsists independently of what is the case.

What is the case are state of affairs. State of affairs is constituted by the substance and properties of objects.

Then Wittgenstein proposes:

2.0.2.7 . Objects, the unalterable, and the subsistent are one and the same.

Now, this seems to smell of monism or the logical atomistic theory made by the logical positivists.

Further;

2.0.2.7.1. Objects are what is unalterable and subsistent; their configuration is what is changing and unstable.

Reinforcing the logical atomism and monism in the Tractatus.

Then confusingly he states;

2.0.6.1 . States of affairs are independent of one another.

This isn't confusing if we assume that states of affairs are observer dependent, thus the variation in their pictorial form relative to each observer, this also applies to epistemological beliefs.

I think the issue gets resolved when we make the claim that something just is the same thing as it is. Tarskian semantics also does help. The liar just is lying.