I see psychologist and psychiatrist, but none of it seems to help. If life is so bad, why continue living? — rossii

Why don't the visits help? Depression usually takes a long time to treat and get better. I tend to always feel better despite taking so many medications. I was on a few in the past; but, now am much better overall due to them. Don't believe the utter crap online saying that antidepressants are evil or bad. They have their use and are effective despite what people say. It just takes time for them to work.

Best regards and don't give up.

You know it's Wittgenstein, right?

What about 9/11?

I have a strong feeling that people decided that the ruling elite should be left to their own after 9/11 and let lesser people concern with themselves. People seem to have accepted or put up with whatever shenanigans that Dubya would do for their ability to enjoy their lives in whatever manner they seem fit to do.

9/11 was really a much more important day than people consider it to be.

It seems to me you're saying what is wrong, in some moral sense, with being depressed. — Moliere

Not explicitly.

However, there is a negative implicit connotation with being depressed in society, especially in the workplace.

As if having depression is a failure of oneself, and the reason people seek treatment is not out of need but is because they perceive themselves as being wrong and perceive others as perceiving them as wrong. — Moliere

Indeed, in the U.S where you have this stereotype (particularly strong in regards to males) to so to speak, pick oneself up by their bootstraps - having depression is often viewed as a failure and one feels a burden and quite real pain of feeling ostracized from society. (Which evidently aggravates the illness.)

Though this is becoming less of a problem, nowadays, than in the past, it is still a very strong prejudice held in the workplace with our obsession with efficiency and being productive.

If that be the case then, certainly, there's nothing morally wrong with depression. The reason one seeks treatment is the same as the reason one seeks treatment for chronic pain -- to feel better. Not because they are wrong for having depression. — Moliere

No, there is nothing objectively wrong with having depression; but, one feels much more burdened socially having depression than say having a broken wrist or leg.

Unless you're well read in the psychiatric literature on the topic and prepared to dispute it, then I will defer to it, not you. — Thorongil

The thing is the medical professionals don't entirely have an answer to that question themselves. I am often astonished at the power of the placebo effect and wonder how does the brain know how to "fix" itself just through the power of belief.

If people didn't think of depression as such a nasty condition, well who knows, it probably wouldn't even be considered a disorder anymore.

Yes, I tend to agree with everything you've just said. Is this all an issue of the population or something more explicit like not having some incentive for not bullshitting or lying?

Clinical depression is classified as a mental disorder, which again, is not a moral judgment, but simply a description of an abnormal neurological state. — Thorongil

But take for example the fact that SSRI's and placebos have about the same efficacy. Meaning, that there is a vague line between distinguishing clinical depression from non-clinical depression?

What's more, how can someone know what the truth is when fed all of this propaganda and manufactured consent throughout their lives?

The only option in my search for answers about issues was to resort to Chomsky and other like-minded intellectuals.

Has anyone seen the documentary mentioned around here, called "Hypernormalization" by Adam Curtis? I found it to be quite eye opening.

But of course truth is what is still there despite what you say about it. A post-truth world must fail. — Banno

I think the real issue is that people, in general, don't even care about 'truth', however presented or formulated.

Truth keeps on changing and evolving and barely anyone has the audacity to speak of The truth unless they want to be thought of as crackpots and nutters.

It's interesting that society disapproves of depression, as something that must be 'treated'... In other countries, it's even shameful to admit that one is depressed. Then there's the issue of masking depression with other emotions such as anger or maladaptive behaviors like alcoholism.

I might be exaggerating here (though the lengths people go to in order to gain recognition, esteem, and other self-infatuating desires would seem to affirm this hypothesis) that half the battle in treating depression is to overcome the negative connotation of the "mental illness", "disorder", or rather simply "condition" that one finds themselves in. I feel that then people can begin treatment and eventually learn to cope and accept depression as a companion in life, albeit unwanted or unloved. This obviously requires some maturity and not everyone is willing to accept the label without a good fight against it - a rather futile one at that.

See, the first stage of nirvana is attained when you give up on your personal hopes and dreams, but this is incomplete, because even though your spirit is dead, the body still remains, so nirvana isn't completed until death. — Wosret

I think, subconsciously I have been living a nihilistic life. Nihilism quite literally leaves no room for developing self-esteem, in anything, including the self, as nothing is of value. (Quite a tongue twister there)

Another version is to only treat the self as a source of value; however, the self has no inherent value devoid of things that are not part of itself thus leading to solipsism.

You need to distinguish clinical depression from non-clinical depression. If you're talking about the latter, then I actually agree with you. If you're talking about the former, then there is something wrong with it, medically speaking. — Thorongil

What exactly about clinical depression is wrong about it? Why place a value judgment on such a condition?

Are you exclusively giving depression a physical source here? That's surely misguided, if so. — Noble Dust

What other source is there? Are you talking about maladaptive beliefs?

Well, for one, the possibility of it leading to suicide... — Noble Dust

The point I want to emphasize is that thinking of depression as exclusively something undesirable or unpleasant exacerbates the chance of committing suicide.

No; the people compelled to commit suicide have patiently born their depression to an unbearable point. — Noble Dust

Well, that is maladaptive behavior. If one is depressed, then the natural thing to do is find the root cause of it and treat it and go on living as one wants. If the depression persists, then accepting it and not beating yourself over it seems like the appropriate thing to do.

The way you phrase this suggests that "suffering" is a choice, or an action. Hopefully this is just a mistake in sentence structure. — Noble Dust

Essentially, the only thing we have control over is our own mental state. This is the central theme of logotherapy and cognitive behavioral therapy. Coming to terms that one is inclined to experience a certain mental state that can be characterized as 'depressed' ought to lead to less suffering and self-inflicted pain.

To embrace depression as a learning experience rather than to try to avoid it may be necessary to lay the groundwork for a future desirable state[...] — Baden

That's interesting due to depression sometimes being called by its other name 'learned helplessness'.

but depression in itself is still an undesirable state — Baden

I have many desires, one of which is to be rich and never have to worry about finances anymore. Sometimes being depressed in natural; but, at others it is detrimental.

My point is that depression is only viewed/labeled as detrimental when viewed through the eye of another and not oneself. One ought not condemn oneself as 'helpless', 'hopeless', 'powerless', 'useless' when experiencing depression. That only aggravates the condition and makes one's life seem miserable.

So does having a broken leg. Berating yourself over it won't make it any better, would it?

Yea, I have no idea what self-esteem is after asking this question.

It seems like one of those egotistical concepts that can never be fully actualized.

For the matter, as mentioned earlier, self-esteem can never be attained much like happiness; but, is a continual never ending process.

But, then one wonders how did Buddha attain nirvana? Maybe if you believe hard enough it can be true?

So, off the top of my head...

What good this internal nagging voice do a person any good?

"I'm bad at this."
"I don't understand it, therefore XYZ."
"I'm inherently flawed."

You get the idea?

So, what you're essentially saying that much like a Chinese finger trap, the harder you fight with this ever observant and infallible God from the Old Testament you ought to just ignore what it is saying, yes? But, what happens when you ignore it? Job from the Bible comes to my mind, how exactly, I'm not so sure.

While reading into Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, I learned that some psychologists buy into this "inherently defective" line of thought presented by the patient. Freud said something about the matter that the depressed individual views the world correctly or in the most realistic fashion.

Cognitive behavioral therapy is something that I return to when I associate my emotions with distorted beliefs. What is confusing to me is the entire point of the book, which the author explains to be centered around building a strong self-esteem. Isn't this strange?

Maybe if you can't catch a rabbit, then try catching something slower.

What does one say to the all powerful internal critic, who more often than not abuses you and your confidence level to cope with tasks?

Is it a result of having a low sense of self-esteem?

How does one make it shut up and be left alone?

Yes, but I am talking about something that comes before work/working on one's self. Namely that there is a certain goal towards which one strives. The realization (or if you prefer, 'self-actualization') of that goal, through working on it, would lead to a higher self-esteem.

However, given that people have insatiable wants and desires, I find it doubtful that people will ever attain a lasting and enduring sense of high self-esteem. Meaning that 'self-esteem' is a rabbit one can chase after; but, never really attain it.

Now, that you have climbed the ladder you can throw it away or offer it to some other fellow.

And there is a bit of a secret here; I only need high self-esteem if I have low self-esteem. I convince myself of my potency because I feel impotent. Hey, have you read any Alice Miller? She goes into the origins and problems of grandiosity (the left hand of depression) quite well. — unenlightened

Interesting. The last book I finished and meditated over was Viktor Frankl's, Man's Search for Meaning. It was a nice book; but, very daft in terms of not addressing our emotions while instead focusing on sheer rationality.

I will definitely give Miller a try. I have a feeling that grandiosity is born out of suffering; but, I digress.

Thanks.

Part of the structure of what we call depression is a perfectionist drive on one hand, and a beating one's self over the head for failing to be perfect. This vicious cycle drives down one's sense of self-esteem. — Bitter Crank

Sorry to arrive late to your post; but, I slept over what you said and have some questions that need answering. I am so self-important in that regard, ey?

Would you say that depression came first or is this a matter of society inflicting pain and suffering on an individual to live up to some standards that we collectively believe in?

The dissonance between shared beliefs and one's own self can be quite burdensome.

Just as an interesting side note.

One can see the torture that one goes through when confronting one's self with having/maintaining a high sense of self-esteem.

The Book of Job.
The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius.
The Confessions of St. Augustine

That was rather my point. High self -esteem might lead to happiness - lets suppose. But if Ithink I am the Good Samaritan, or the uber-mensch or whatever turns me on, when in fact I am simply a deluded and arrogant little shit, then my self-esteem is not 'true'. — unenlightened

Understood, however, you seem to contradict yourself with asserting that there is such a thing as a 'true' sense of self-esteem. Where have I missed your point? As you may have noticed I have a disregard for the concept of 'self-esteem' and personally think it is a fictional concept that originates from some sociological/normative/cultural type of reasoning, which needs deflating.

May I ask...

What is the relationship between being an individual and having a high sense of self-esteem and at the same time being of some utility to society? Are these two concepts at odds?

Here's an interesting thought that occurred to me.

If self-esteem is dependent on what others think of one's self, then why not just say fuck it and disregard what other's think about one's self? I don't know what to call this state of mind... At the same time, it expresses individualism and one's disregard for society. There is a dissonance there if anyone has noticed.

Your subject line asks what self-esteem is, but that doesn't seem to be what you're really wondering. After all, what it is isn't much of a mystery. It's simply an evaluation of one's own worth and the subsequent emotional, attitudinal and behavioral disposition related to the evaluation.

Anyway, you seem to be more interested in how one might go about achieving a positive self-esteem. One of the most important tactics is to "work on yourself." That is, work on your goals, work towards accomplishments including career goals, improve and expand your education, improve your health, your hygiene, your appearance, your home, your interpersonal skills, how you manage your time and what you put your attention on, etc. If you conscientiously, persistently work on all of those things, you'll achieve a more positive self-esteem, and you'll exude self-confidence. — Terrapin Station

I took the liberty of underlining all the "work" phrases you have included in your reply. How is it that work itself is something that will bring... happiness (as I understand having a high self-esteem entails a sense of happiness or contentment with one's own life)? This seems to be something that many people in the West do and yet end up never feeling happy or satisfied with their lives.

We philosophers prefer justified true self-esteem to high self-esteem. Which is of course the reason most philosophers are unhappy. — unenlightened

Ahh, a perverted form of the naturalistic fallacy as I understand it. However, this does not seem to be an exclusive thing that philosophers do...

Take for example the noble Buddhist or some other poor bastard such as a good Samaritan. They place great value in certain beliefs about how one ought to behave and as such center their self-esteem on fulfilling those central beliefs to their respective labels of being a good Buddhist or Samaritan.

Personally, I find all this relativism quite confusing and think that if one ought to build a healthy self-esteem, then they ought to recognize what they can or can not do. But, then again I'm biased on the matter as I've spent a whole lot of time chanting in my head Epictetus or Marcus Aurelius.

On the other hand, is was Nietzsche who argued that the overman would have an objective and realistic view of their own existence. — darthbarracuda

There are no such things as an "objective view of their own existence."

If one believes so then they will be inclined to start believing in their superiority over other groups of people or their absolute beliefs about themselves. Dangerous stuff.

I'm interested in if anyone has heard of the term "ego boundaries".

Ego boundaries in a person with high self-esteem are well defined along with a deep understanding of one's natural talents and limitations, which brings me to my main point. The person with an ideal sense of self-worth is the stoic. A stoic knows that there are things within his/her control and makes sure that he does not feel inadequate or incompetent when trying to look after things out of his/her control.

Essentially a stoic is the ideal towards one ought to strive in understanding the things within their control and the things out of their control.

A square circle.

They exist in Godelian space.

I don't play ranked. I just play normals with Tryn all the time. I must have 200k points on him, LOL.

League of Legends mostly. Don't really want to invest time in other games.

nanners

This is a quote from the text provided by tom,

For although a quantum computer has an infinite-dimensional state space, only a finite dimensional unitary transformation need be effected at every step to simulate its evolution.

How does Deutsch know this? Surely, this is a strong assumption that would require some exhaustive technical prowess in proving such a statement...

since mathematics is a language we employ to represent ways we think about the world; mathematics certainly isn't the furniture of the world, especially not exhaustively. — Terrapin Station

Well, I'm a platonist. Anyhow, mathematics seems to be the language of the universe and indispensable when describing reality. Ask any scientist.

The human brain is not an object, albeit a very complex one?

But, the laws of physics are the same for all of us and we occupy the same space. So, hypothetically we are all experiencing the same history of the world (or what can be called the evolution of the wavefunction).

I may be uneducated on the matter; but, why is this timeline where I'm asking these questions apparent to me and not any other? I'm not sure if I'm being clear enough.

Thank you.

Why can't I be in the possible world where I played the lottery and won?

Common!

Statistically not so! The reality that is real is the one most probable to occur according to the evolution of the wavefunction. The rest aren't as real!

See
http://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/37346/

I'm having a mental cramp over it.