Why should anyone 'suffer' from depression? — Question

Cause it sucks?!

So does having a broken leg. Berating yourself over it won't make it any better, would it?

To embrace depression as a learning experience rather than to try to avoid it may be necessary to lay the groundwork for a future desirable state, and when this is the case labeling it simply as an illness is misguided, I agree, but depression in itself is still an undesirable state. Society is short-sighted on the issue but not completely blind.

Depression seems to be a natural state that the body embraces when afflicted with continual stress. — Question

Are you exclusively giving depression a physical source here? That's surely misguided, if so.

What's wrong with being depressed? — Question

Well, for one, the possibility of it leading to suicide...

It's my view (perhaps mistaken), that the people who can't accept their depression are compelled to commit suicide. — Question

No; the people compelled to commit suicide have patiently born their depression to an unbearable point.

Why should anyone 'suffer' from depression? — Question

The way you phrase this suggests that "suffering" is a choice, or an action. Hopefully this is just a mistake in sentence structure.

People should accept depression first and then proceed with treatment if they feel the need to. — Question

I do agree with this. Accepting it is a huge step. An integral aspect of depression is that it abuses itself. Depression is cyclical, in connection with feelings of shame. Accepting depression is an opening of a door into a new room.

Society seems to associate the mental state of being depressed as something undesirable or a disease that should be treated. — Question

But this view of depression is an evolution from past views. Maybe it's not the end-all view of depression, but it's a step in the right direction. In our scientist (scientism-ist) culture, it's a comfort to imagine depression as being the same as a physical illness, even though it's not. It's a start.

You need to distinguish clinical depression from non-clinical depression. If you're talking about the latter, then I actually agree with you. If you're talking about the former, then there is something wrong with it, medically speaking.

To embrace depression as a learning experience rather than to try to avoid it may be necessary to lay the groundwork for a future desirable state[...] — Baden

That's interesting due to depression sometimes being called by its other name 'learned helplessness'.

but depression in itself is still an undesirable state — Baden

I have many desires, one of which is to be rich and never have to worry about finances anymore. Sometimes being depressed in natural; but, at others it is detrimental.

My point is that depression is only viewed/labeled as detrimental when viewed through the eye of another and not oneself. One ought not condemn oneself as 'helpless', 'hopeless', 'powerless', 'useless' when experiencing depression. That only aggravates the condition and makes one's life seem miserable.

... is an evolution... — Noble Dust

Speaking of evolution, why did we evolve in such a way that we can be 'depressed'? Presumably, there was some benefit to either the person or to the biologically related group. I'm not sure what that might be. Perhaps it had a protective value. individuals under excessive stress would withdraw for a while and perhaps thereby recover. Or perhaps depression caused ruminative thinking that helped individuals realize something useful.

I'm not sure I buy this 'evolutionary psychology' theory. I've experienced long periods of depression and it didn't yield any advantages. (It caused me to lose weight I could hardly afford to lose that first round. Alas, it hasn't had that effect again when I could really use some loss of appetite.) It sucked a lot.

Why should anyone 'suffer' from depression? — Question

Because it is quite unpleasant, that's why.

Are you exclusively giving depression a physical source here? That's surely misguided, if so. — Noble Dust

What other source is there? Are you talking about maladaptive beliefs?

Well, for one, the possibility of it leading to suicide... — Noble Dust

The point I want to emphasize is that thinking of depression as exclusively something undesirable or unpleasant exacerbates the chance of committing suicide.

No; the people compelled to commit suicide have patiently born their depression to an unbearable point. — Noble Dust

Well, that is maladaptive behavior. If one is depressed, then the natural thing to do is find the root cause of it and treat it and go on living as one wants. If the depression persists, then accepting it and not beating yourself over it seems like the appropriate thing to do.

The way you phrase this suggests that "suffering" is a choice, or an action. Hopefully this is just a mistake in sentence structure. — Noble Dust

Essentially, the only thing we have control over is our own mental state. This is the central theme of logotherapy and cognitive behavioral therapy. Coming to terms that one is inclined to experience a certain mental state that can be characterized as 'depressed' ought to lead to less suffering and self-inflicted pain.

You need to distinguish clinical depression from non-clinical depression. If you're talking about the latter, then I actually agree with you. If you're talking about the former, then there is something wrong with it, medically speaking. — Thorongil

What exactly about clinical depression is wrong about it? Why place a value judgment on such a condition?

Speaking of evolution, why did we evolve in such a way that we can be 'depressed'? Presumably, there was some benefit to either the person or to the biologically related group. — Bitter Crank

That's just the thing; I think assuming right away that depression must have a biological advantage or disadvantage is itself flawed (I have no interest in opening a can of worms about larger issues about evolutionary benefits, etc., since I don't want to derail this thread, but do what you will). But, for instance, the potential examples you give to the biological advantages of depression don't hold up with my own, and presumably other people's experiences with depression (and you acknowledge you've dealt with depression yourself; do your conjectures add up with your own experience?); "withdrawing", as you say, often just leads to new, heretofore unknown depths of depression; sure, "ruminative" thinking due to isolation can lead to "useful" realizations, but at this point, we're not dealing with biological imperatives, we're dealing with spiritual wisdom...

An interesting view. I myself have clinical depression, not the very severe kind, but enough that I lived as basically a shut-in up from 2013 to last year. Now it is even less severe but I am still fairly limited motivation-wise and how much I can effectively handle doing regularly. I do not personally consider my condition to be a negative one, of course can be quite unpleasant, but I appreciate the different perspectives it was able to show me as it relates to emotion and cognition. If I could choose to start my life over again without it, I wouldn't. I do realize though that I may not feel the same way about it had it been more severe.

As it relates to suicide, my views on it are this. There is no real need to live. If one feels that they no longer want to live, I cannot see why they should not commit suicide. This is the conclusion I have come to after a mixture of attempting to understand the nature of physical existence and spending much time on the border of being suicidal myself. I recognize that the reason I believe this is probably directly related to my depression, my emotions aren't as... robust as they used to be, but I feel that it is probably not invalid regardless. I am not sure if the question of accepting depression is more of a "should you" as it is one of "can you". After feeling it myself the idea that it some people may not be able to come to terms with it is not surprising at all. I think it depends on the feelings and beliefs of the individual that experiences depression that really decide that.

I've experienced long periods of depression — Bitter Crank

Oh. Well would you look at that, that's something we have in common, though I'm not sure if we had similar experiences severity-wise, and it looks like the exact symptoms we have may be a little different.

I'm not sure I buy this 'evolutionary psychology' theory. — Bitter Crank

I agree. I can't see how having this increases my chances to pass on my genes in any way. Do you know of any research papers on this topic?

So does having a broken leg. Berating yourself over it won't make it any better, would it? — Question

Ignoring it doesn't really work either.

I too have suffered from bouts of depression, and have many friends who have too. I'm mostly glad when people try to help, at least in retrospect, even when their understanding of me is poor. There's nothing wrong with kindness. If you can't handle a little misplaced kindness directed towards you, then it's time you learnt.

For me it's the ability to function autonomously that counts. If someone can do that, mild kindness is the best service one can offer them. But if someone isn't functioning independently, the kindness can get more pushy. Well, that's the way i deal with it. There aren't rules.

Mania is pretty great though, right?

I'm like bi-polar or something, probably. When I feel good, I feel like the greatest that's ever walked the earth, but most of the time I feel like a normal idiot. I think that mainly that nothing really interests me, or engages me most of the time, but when something does, I just devour it. I focus all of my attention on it, indivisibly until I bore of it too.

When I get up to date on a great manga I discovered I acquired the inspiration to move my own goals forward a little, and acquired new insights, or at least began to think of things differently, and that was pretty exciting for awhile.

After thanksgiving, I was really happy, and pleased with how things were going, and I told myself that I had everything, that I was satisfied, and that brought about a lot of energy, and enthusiasm. So much so, that I even confronted a couple of people that I'm acquainted with (three people actually, two of which I know personally in RL), because I thought that they had felt that way at one time as well. One of which had been in a car accident, and lost family, and responded emphatically about there being an afterlife. That kind of knocked me out of the stupor, and made me feel kind of shitty. Who could possibly feel that way all the time? Never love anyone? Not have it depend on social connections, love, and belonging? Those will always be shaky, impermanent and fragile.

I decided that I don't have everything. Not even close. Having more and more of my family out here with me has given me more strength, and happiness, but there are always lots of complications and hurdles. I new have my thirteen year old sister... and omg, instant parent is a difficult role. I have no fucking idea how I'm supposed to go about doing this, and I'm deeply worried that I'm going to influence her with my agoraphobic reclusive lifestyle.

It's interesting that society disapproves of depression, as something that must be 'treated'... In other countries, it's even shameful to admit that one is depressed. Then there's the issue of masking depression with other emotions such as anger or maladaptive behaviors like alcoholism.

I might be exaggerating here (though the lengths people go to in order to gain recognition, esteem, and other self-infatuating desires would seem to affirm this hypothesis) that half the battle in treating depression is to overcome the negative connotation of the "mental illness", "disorder", or rather simply "condition" that one finds themselves in. I feel that then people can begin treatment and eventually learn to cope and accept depression as a companion in life, albeit unwanted or unloved. This obviously requires some maturity and not everyone is willing to accept the label without a good fight against it - a rather futile one at that.

You need to distinguish clinical depression from non-clinical depression. If you're talking about the latter, then I actually agree with you. If you're talking about the former, then there is something wrong with it, medically speaking. — Thorongil

How would one go about distinguishing between clinical depression and non-clinical depression?

The former is diagnosed by a doctor, the latter is not.

What exactly about clinical depression is wrong about it? Why place a value judgment on such a condition? — Question

I mean "wrong" with respect to one's health, not in a moral sense. Clinical depression is classified as a mental disorder, which again, is not a moral judgment, but simply a description of an abnormal neurological state. Non-clinical depression is perfectly normal and healthy.

Well, people say they are "depressed". Depression is a mood disorder, not the same as "life sucks". Maybe they are not actually depressed, in terms of clinically defined terms. They might be angry, unhappy, grieving, stressed out, might have sleep apnea, be alcoholic or addicted, fearful about debt, immigration status--all sorts of things that can 'grind one down' but which aren't depression.

Long-term stress and unhappiness might resemble depression, and it might even get better if treated like depression, but a change of life circumstances would be more effective (but much more difficult to arrange).

People who are clinically depressed have some of these symptoms, (National Institute for Mental Health):

Difficulty concentrating, remembering details, and making decisions
Fatigue and decreased energy
Feelings of guilt, worthlessness, and/or helplessness
Feelings of hopelessness and/or pessimism
Insomnia, early-morning wakefulness, or excessive sleeping
Irritability, restlessness
Loss of interest in activities or hobbies once pleasurable, including sex
Overeating or appetite loss
Persistent aches or pains, headaches, cramps, or digestive problems that do not ease even with treatment
Persistent sad, anxious, or "empty" feelings
Thoughts of suicide, suicide attempts

Just because somebody isn't sleeping well doesn't mean they have depression; and over-eating isn't a reliable sign either--not these days. Just checking off the list isn't enough. Normally one is interviewed and other factors are taken into account.

Clinical depression might not have some readily identifiable cause. A very active person who is injured and in a cast might slide into depression. Generally this will go away as they recover.

Some people are bi-polar; their feelings of elation or depression aren't usually linked to any particular life circumstance. The mood swings can be very severe.

If you like it, is it depression?

Right. Some theorists want to find an evolutionary advantage in anything that they find common or persistent. Like I said, I don't really buy this theory for depression. My guess is that depression (properly diagnosed) in the present world doesn't have an analogy in our early evolutionary history when life was shorter and simpler. Also, neuro-chemistry has been evolving a lot longer than primates have been in business.

Clinical depression is classified as a mental disorder, which again, is not a moral judgment, but simply a description of an abnormal neurological state. — Thorongil

But take for example the fact that SSRI's and placebos have about the same efficacy. Meaning, that there is a vague line between distinguishing clinical depression from non-clinical depression?

Vague but not non-existent. Medical professionals have good reasons for classifying it as such. Unless you're well read in the psychiatric literature on the topic and prepared to dispute it, then I will defer to it, not you.

The former is diagnosed by a doctor, the latter is not. — Thorongil

But a doctor could certainly diagnose the latter too, wouldn't he? If he wouldn't, in what sense is it depression?

Unless you're well read in the psychiatric literature on the topic and prepared to dispute it, then I will defer to it, not you. — Thorongil

The thing is the medical professionals don't entirely have an answer to that question themselves. I am often astonished at the power of the placebo effect and wonder how does the brain know how to "fix" itself just through the power of belief.

If people didn't think of depression as such a nasty condition, well who knows, it probably wouldn't even be considered a disorder anymore.

But a doctor could certainly diagnose the latter too, wouldn't he? — Agustino

No. You could go to the doctor claiming to feel depressed and he or she might not diagnose you. Normal depression is not medically diagnosable, because there's nothing medically wrong with it.

If people didn't think of depression as such a nasty condition, well who knows, it probably wouldn't even be considered a disorder anymore. — Question

The clinical form of it is nasty, though, such that the people having it don't want it. It's not fun and it's not healthy. You should look up more information about it. We're not talking about feeling sad because your dog died or you watched a melancholic movie or because you read some existentialist philosopher talking about how absurd life is.

What's wrong with being depressed? It's my view (perhaps mistaken), that the people who can't accept their depression — Question

Accepting one's clinical depression means that they've attempted to understand what is physically wrong with them. Yet, merely to acknowledge an ill does not in turn remedy it. Indeed, many who suffer from depression aren't even able to acknowledge that something ails them, which means that they've not gotten their feet first off the ground toward bettering themselves.

are compelled to commit suicide.

This is because for those that suffer from major depression, we often think and feel as though we are literally falling apart and slowly dying. This experience is always, always dreadful.

For me, to embrace depression means to embrace that sense of death and dying, which is why so many who suffer from severe mental illness decide to end their life. I'm heartened by the fact that I've not gone down that road and that I've found no interest in embracing the failures of myself as if death remedies what it cannot and does not.

But take for example the fact that SSRI's and placebos have about the same efficacy. Meaning, that there is a vague line between distinguishing clinical depression from non-clinical depression? — Question

This isn't quite right. The mistake that's being made here is to presume that clinical depression exists in a microcosm - that is, when one is clinically depressed, one cannot also be situationally depressed on top of it.

In my experience, situational depression, if left untreated or unaccepted, can lead to clinical depression, which is a kind of illness of the brain and will, such that one cannot, therefore, do much at all about what ails them. Similarly, if one becomes clinically depressed, as not a result of situational depression, then this unwanted, unplanned for, and unexpectedly crippling illness can bring about subsequent situational depression. The key, here, is for one understand from whence their depression comes. This, I know, can be a tricky business, but as I said above, if there's one thing that I've learned about my illness, it's that my depression is a multi-headed demon. It does not serve me well to presume my depression is either entirely clinical or, on the other hand, completely situational. It's very important not to forget that those who are clinically depressed also still live in a fallen world, which means they're not immune to the struggles of life, just as the situationally depressed are not immune to falling into clinical depression.

But a doctor could certainly diagnose the latter too, wouldn't he? If he wouldn't, in what sense is it depression? — Agustino

It isn't a medical doctor's job to decide whether life itself sucks a shitstick. Theologians, philosophers, poets, musicians - these are the people whose job it is to contemplate the nature of such a topic. The doctor, like the philosopher, has a specific toolkit with which he/she seeks to understand whether one's life can be changed for the better. This is why we treat broken bones, cancer, clinical depression, and all the other sorts of physical ailments that we often find ourselves suffering from. Perhaps you do still think that seeing a priest or saying a prayer can fix the frailties of our bodies, but this suggests to me a distinct lack of understanding for the nuance distinguishing the role of medicating the body and medicating the mind.

I am often astonished at the power of the placebo effect and wonder how does the brain know how to "fix" itself just through the power of belief. — Question

No amount of belief or conviction can alone fix clinical depression. Belief is but one important facet in the understanding and treating of clinical depression. To merely believe is to get the belief and not the truth. I suppose in some sense, perhaps the truth is a One, but not the many paths we must take in order to arrive within it.

What's wrong with being depressed? — Question

Antithetical to human flourishing. It is human languish.

I separate terminal depression with temporal depression, with the criteria regarding its cause. The former caused by no particular event and is therefore deeply maladaptive, the latter is caused by a particular event. The former remains forever, one has to live with it or take medicine, while the latter can fade away by non-medicinal habitual adjustments.

Now, I heard an evolutionary psychological explanation for the latter case. Namely that the state of depression is a temporal state that occurs after a person experiences a traumatic event, like losing a child. The mental state helps the individual to abolish romantic emotional biases and to rationally evaluate problems.

Depressed people often think intensely about their problems. These thoughts are called ruminations; they are persistent and depressed people have difficulty thinking about anything else. Numerous studies have also shown that this thinking style is often highly analytical. They dwell on a complex problem, breaking it down into smaller components, which are considered one at a time.

This analytical style of thought, of course, can be very productive. Each component is not as difficult, so the problem becomes more tractable. Indeed, when you are faced with a difficult problem, such as a math problem, feeling depressed is often a useful response that may help you analyze and solve it. For instance, in some of our research, we have found evidence that people who get more depressed while they are working on complex problems in an intelligence test tend to score higher on the test.

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[1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/depressions-evolutionary/

You could go to the doctor claiming to feel depressed and he or she might not diagnose you. — Thorongil

I highly doubt that if I go to a doctor telling them that I am depressed, they would just send me out the door, and not diagnose me with anything. They would diagnose me with something for sure, and quite possibly prescribe me some pills for the short term and then ask to see me again. I don't need to have major depression (which is what you're talking about) to be treated by a doctor. It will suffice that I have, for example, frequent episodes of lethargy, loss of energy/motivation, trouble sleeping and sadness. That is not sufficient to qualify me for major depression. But it is more than sufficient to warrant treatment according to a doctor.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/expert-answers/clinical-depression/faq-20057770

There's also other "symptoms" or personality types that would be (mis)diagnosed with depression. For example, lack of motivation, sloth and laziness will often pass for depression. Because whoever is feeling in such a mood doesn't feel like doing anything and yet they're not particularly sad, but those around them will find it unnatural. (in fact, I've had long periods in my life like that. On holidays I prefer to sit around literarily doing nothing much at all instead of travel, etc. - most folks around me find this strange, because they all want to travel on holidays) But medical doctors have a tendency to think such people require "treatment", rather than that they simply require something interesting to do.

has a specific toolkit with which he/she seeks to understand whether one's life can be changed for the better. — Heister Eggcart

But is it the doctor's job to decide what "better" is for the patient?

Perhaps you do still think that seeing a priest or saying a prayer can fix the frailties of our bodies, but this suggests to me a distinct lack of understanding for the nuance distinguishing the role of medicating the body and medicating the mind. — Heister Eggcart

In my experience, it is your own inner strength, and maybe a few people close to you, who are most helpful, not the doctor. The doctor is "helpful" in a few cases. Someone from my family suffered and died from Alzheimer's. Yeah, the doctor was "helpful", she gave them pills and injections so that they would be like a vegetable, and would lose interest in everything else - of course they wouldn't be violent anymore. If you count that as "helpful" fair enough. I don't. If you're unlucky to get a physical condition like that, then you're fucked - doctor or no doctor. That's it, if you get that, I honestly think that nothing, save a miracle, can save you.

But I'm not discussing that type of mental illness. If you get depression - and I was diagnosed with depression before - you have hope. You're not finished. You have a lot of inner resources left, which lie untapped inside of yourself. So long as your mind is not physically affected, you can still climb out of the pit you have dug yourself in. In that case, there's ways for you to save yourself. But they ultimately depend on you, not on the doctor. The doctor can do little, if anything, to save you.