So help me out. It shouldn’t be that much trouble.

Where conservatives like punishing women (cf. Texas), liberals like punishing the uneducated. — StreetlightX

You gave an example for conservatives but neglected to give one for liberals.

You’re saying that silencing opposition and controlling the truth may both be strategic power plays?

before trying to punish people you don't like.
— StreetlightX

Also useful if you could learn to tell the difference between yourself and others not you. I take your remark to be projection, a conclusion imo well-grounded in many posts of yours. — tim wood

You can’t blame him, my ego would definitely want to disown that irrational hostility.

It is a thorn in the side of those who think art is for art's sake, as it proves art is an expression of consciousness - regardless of the art's form. — Pop

Claiming that art is an expression of consciousness in no way contradicts aestheticism. It’s as though you’re saying that defining art as an expression of consciousness somehow proves that art is inherently didactic. That makes no sense whatsoever.

It seems to me that you’re problem isn’t with aestheticism but simply a general lack of art appreciation in society, assuming the concern were honest. Defining art as an expression of consciousness doesn’t help, and I don’t think it’s designed to help. It’s designed to exploit the lack of art appreciation in order to influence.

Dumb fascist that I am, I still don’t get it. You’re saying that you can’t tell truth from lies?

I am very intelligent. — StreetlightX

And funny.

Looks good, I love roasted kale with olive oil and salt. — darthbarracuda

I normally add it to salads but occasionally sauté it with avocado oil, onion, garlic, and fresh ground pepper and salt. Like spinach, a big gob of it cooks down instantly to a fraction of its original apparent mass. Delish.

A little refresher on a couple of words and their meaning.

Advocate
To speak or write in favor of; support or urge by argument; recommend publicly.

Consider
To think carefully about, especially in order to make a decision; contemplate; reflect on.

I meant similar to the bar. A show of basic competency that relates specifically to voting, whatever that may be. For example, one question might be: what is socialism?

I don't know how to keep Trumpsters and their ilk from voting. But if I could, I would. Just as I would block most people from owning most guns under most circumstances, as do many jurisdictions in the US, and opposed to those, like Texas, which appears to allow anyone who wants to carry a gun to do so. What I am against is craziness, and I am willing to discriminate non-prejudicially against that all day and all night long. — tim wood

Maybe earning the right to vote by passing an examination like the bar exam. Though even if preparation for the examination was made freely available to all the poor would most likely tend to be under represented, but that wouldn’t be anything new.

Who is trying to influence now? — Pop

Influence is my art form. :nerd:

But seriously, earlier you wrote:

A definition of art, and I’m not saying my definition is necessarily it, has the potential to shift the power balance in the art world, back into the hands of the intellectuals and the artists. This is my primary goal.

It’s not clear how this will change anything. Could you enlighten us? Also, those with power and influence will have power and influence regardless of how art is defined. They’ll still be able to influence culture and speculate on the value of art.

I don’t know what you mean.

I don't want to be a player in the consciousness guru game. I want to be a player in the art definition game. :lol: — Pop

What these games have in common is the desire to influence rather than the desire experience the aesthetic. This disparity is worlds apart.

... and who is proficient at recognizing when it is appropriate (and effectively how) to hurt or help anyone deliberately. 'To gadfly or not to gadfly' – that is our aporia. — 180 Proof

In game theory, cooperation for mutual benefit is the most beneficial strategy. All nice guys, all finish mutually beneficially. In a room of wolves, dog eat dog rules apply and the nice guy gets eaten.

Produce something that exists for you outside of consciousness of it. — Pop

I don’t know what exists beyond of my consciousness. I’m not even sure about what ‘exists’ within my consciousness. If you want to be a player in the consciousness guru game you will need to learn how to embrace the unknown, or at least learn how to pretend that you can.

nothing exists outside of moments of consciousness — Pop

How exactly do you know that?

It is most gentlemenly to be agreeable so I will agree to disagree, thank you very much.

I stumbled onto Dr Rupert Sheldrake, something of a pop * C O N S C I O U S N E S S * guru, and he seems to think that mystical experiences validate the belief in universal consciousness. Remove the self and the self becomes everything, the reasoning seems to be. Rather anthropomorphic if you asked me.

1) But you are a gentleman, good Sir.

2) But you are also a stooge (often the butt of your own joke), good Sir.

It seems to me that Trump and his supporters say whatever people want to hear and whatever they believe gains them some kind of advantage, regardless of what's said is true, so the basic strategy is not to silence opposition but to control the truth or reality. I doubt Mr. Wood is onboard with that.

A little refresher course for all us gents.

The part I wish to share is I find that I have tried always to be a gentleman. — tim wood

+3 virtue points for trying.

• Salsa dancing, but not since pandemic :mask:
• Dog agility (my dog's hobby too)
• Oil painting
• Surfing
• Wing foiling
• Cooking
• Newest hobby is growing kale* :grin:

*

I visited the Louvre once and out of the dizzying amount of painting you couldn’t get within 10 yards of the Mona Lisa because of all the people crowded around it. Elephant art really stands apart.

The men suffered severe dehydration, starvation, and exposure on the open ocean, and the survivors eventually resorted to eating the bodies of the crewmen who had died. When that proved insufficient, members of the crew drew lots to determine whom they would sacrifice so that the others could live. — Wikipedia

Yikes, those dudes were hardcore. Thank you full refrigerator and dry land.

They do work that way, when it comes to things like art, culture, society, religion. These terms don't work the way a term like "table" or "astronaut" do. — baker

I could have sworn that I said something like “Suggesting that the definition of art can be so readily shifted only underscores its nature of being a social construct and subject to the whims of culture and speculative value.” Oh yeah, I did write that.

Australian politicians are never in the news. Do they even have politicians?

How is claiming that consciousness is a constant feature of art scientific?
— praxis

I give up — Pop

Of course you do, “science” is too hard to explain. :razz:

It's strength is, I believe, that it identifies in scientific terms something that is a constant feature of art. — Pop

How is claiming that consciousness is a constant feature of art scientific?

I think you misconstrue me entirely. Panpsychism is not religious, and neither is Yogic logic. I used Buddhism as it is generally more recognizable. I only had a superficial understanding of consciousness at the time of writing the definition. I have since spent almost two years gaining a better, more scientific, insight. It turns out information has a lot to do with consciousness - consciousness is a state of integrated information in IIT, and a reinterpretation of information as something fundamental is a current concern in all the disciplines. In respect to art, the only question that remains is - information about what? And what else can it be other then consciousness? Simply put consciousness is a state of mind about how we understand ourselves in the world that we live in. But it is a concept that spans everything, so way outside the scope of this post. — Pop

Well now, you spent two years gaining insight so you must be something of an authority. What did I just say??? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Consciousness woo woo!

It is a challenge to the status quo, of art for art's sake, so anybody wishing to challenge the status quo can use it if they wish. — Pop

Your goofy plan isn't a challenge to anything. You can't even convince some randos on an internet philosophy forum, some of whom might be quite gullible.

... if we had a definition of art, then our understanding of art would self-organize around the definition. — Pop

That's not how labels or signs and meaning work, is it? If I define myself as an astronaut it will be meaningless because I've never trained to be an astronaut and have never been to space. If we change the definition of an astronaut to 'a person who is trained to travel underwater' we'll still need a word for people who are trained to travel in space. Suggesting that the definition of art can be so readily shifted only underscores its nature of being a social construct and subject to the whims of culture and speculative value.

A definition of art, and I’m not saying my definition is necessarily it, has the potential to shift the power balance in the art world, back into the hands of the intellectuals and the artists. This is my primary goal.

What is the basis of the power of those who control the art world today? Wealth and influence basically, right? If I intuit (you don't lay it out explicitly) your plan, you want to somehow imbue art with a kind of pseudo-religious meaning and in that way empower it. Near the OP, which I finally just read, you write:

Panpsychism and Buddhism are the only complete theories of consciousness we have. They both suggest consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe. From this perspective, consciousness takes on a much deeper meaning.

This also explains your curious issue with 'art for art's sake' or art for aesthetic experience. You find aesthetics trivial or mere decoration, apparently. Anyone concerned with power and influence naturally would.

Your definition of art is necessarily ambiguous because the basis of power in a pseudo-religious fantasy art world would be the same as that of religion, faith in the authority, and the authority dictates meaning that they have special access to and which others do not.

When someone asks if you’re awake (conscious) do you tell them your state of mind?
— praxis

What else can you possibly do other then express your state of mind. An answer of affirmative = your state of mind! — Pop

Yay! :party:

Which is either conscious or unconscious when referring specifically to consciousness.
— praxis

:roll: You are trolling - surely? — Pop

When someone asks if you’re awake (conscious) do you tell them your state of mind? No, you answer affirmatively. If someone asks how you’re feeling do you say, “I feel conscious.”?

I fail to see how this is relevant, since you are not going to be making art in your sleep? — Pop

It's a mental state where consciousness is absent. Also, many artists are inspired by dreams and intuition so you can't say that creative or artistic work is entirely conscious.

The subconscious likewise is always an aspect of consciousness, so is not something separate. — Pop

A dream state is subconscious or a state of mind where consciousness is absent.

Yes you have feelings, opinions, etc, and what you express is your current state of mind about these - which is your consciousness. — Pop

It's not as straightforward as you seem to think it is. To a large extent, the human mind can be seen as little more than a prediction machine, and the conscious mind is a kind of guide or rationalizer for that conditioned machine. We react to things according to our conditioning and the conscious mind rationalizes and develops its narrative after the fact.

Consciousness is not merely whether you are conscious or unconscious - it is the current state of one's mind. — Pop

Which is either conscious or unconscious when referring specifically to consciousness. When a surgeon enters an operating theatre and checks on the status of the patient, does he ask the aesthetician "What's the patient's current state of mind?" or does he ask "Is the patient unconscious?" He asks something like the latter because that's specifically his concern.

Note: you're going to continue endlessly repeating yourself until you sort out, or acquire, ideas (metaphysical?) about consciousness.

The state of one’s mind at any particular time is one’s consciousness. — Pop

A meaningless statement since it’s only accounting for consciousness or whether a mind is conscious or unconscious. A mind can be in a dream state, for example, in which case the state of one’s mind is unconscious or lacks consciousness. It doesn’t account for motivation, feelings, mental representations, or anything that a mind is comprised of, merely whether or not its conscious.

the aesthetic - the decorative aspect — Pop

:roll:

Consciousness is a little more accurate, imo. As it relates to a state of mind. — Pop

Right, the state of merely being conscious. In fact, it is less accurate because we know that much of mental activity, and perhaps especially creative work, is subconscious.

It is a state of mind that is expressed in art, or anywhere. — Pop

You mean like this?



The state of being awake depicted in art by Leah Saulnier.

Not sure how this can be expressed anywhere. I guess Saulnier could go on tour.

I’m conscious of some of my mental activity but not all, and I’m generally aware of how conscious I am, though I could suddenly become unconscious before having a chance to realize it.

How is mind different to consciousness? — Pop

Being conscious is being awake and aware. A mind is more than simply being conscious. A mind requires an internal model of its environment and a model of itself itself to navigate its environment. It needs to have motivations or drives, such as the drives to feed and reproduce, or to make art.

Supposedly your "long story" can bridge this gap. Just as I predicted this epic tale has not materialized.
— praxis

I gave you a link to panpsychism. — Pop

You must have your own version because some of your claims don't seem to agree with it. Panpsychism seems to center on 'mind' and you focus on consciousness. There's obviously a difference between being conscious and not being conscious, and you seem to accept this difference. A mind doesn't need to be conscious, does it? Naturally, art is an expression of minds.

There's the notion of pearls before swine. Do you distinguish yourself from swine? — tim wood

It's from the New Testament. Religious authority distinguishing the in-group from the out-group, essentially, to promote group solidarity and control. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Freethinkers don't usually let themselves be lead like children.

At your level - as I understand you - you like it, it's art; it's good. At mine, there's a Wow! involved. That art, as I understand it, has the power to summon in me that which is other to and better than me, to me. — tim wood

Wow! is not good? The power to summon in you that which is other to and better than you is not good?