It’s like God, where people claim to know God but if you ask them about it they’ll eventually say that God is incomprehensible.

Midjourney

You got to stop posting pictures of Jordan Peterson, Prax. People will talk. — Tom Storm

They have an intimate relationship but are not one and the same, I think.

Some folk will also highlight the importance of ritual and spiritual practice which further serves to intensify what appears to be a form of aestheticism. They seem to be saying that their experience of the world, transfigured through the veneration of the divine is deeper, richer and more beautiful than yours (atheist). They see, or hope for, transcendent beauty. You see, or live in, ghastly nihilism. — Tom Storm

Oddly, transcendent beauty transcends faith or any particular value system. Even “ghastly nihilism” can be seen aesthetically.

What do conservatives conserve or wish to conserve? — Vera Mont

Traditions.

Feels a bit like Christmas Eve.

Thanks praxis. Obelix had it rough from the get-go, but even he managed to eat his fill in the unlikeliest of situations, so no worries, I'll fill my belly here as well. — Caerulea-Lawrence

There’s abundant food for the ego in places like this. Meaning, on the other hand, is found in purpose and losing oneself in places and peoples larger than oneself. But don’t take my word for it, you’ll see for yourself soon enough.

Nice.

On a swing...

Same for Midjourney

Are there follow up questions as well, or is this application good enough to get a grasp of if I should be let loose on the innocent lambs in The philosophy forum or not? — Caerulea-Lawrence

The application suggests that the forum should not be let loose on someone so hungry for meaning, actually. You will not find it here.

At the end of the day we’re all slaves to our conditioning and ideologies. If someone is clever enough to press our buttons they’ll press them, because that’s how the world is, wrapped in a swirl of power struggling. We’re fucked.

My dog constantly wants to play, though I've known a dog that didn't have a playful bone in its body. I assume it got that way from human neglect.

I don't disagree, but I'm not convinced that you aren't saying one is better than the other. — Noble Dust

I suppose that I could list all the traditions in life that I think are fine. It would be a long list.

I'm not convinced that to be constrained is inherently a bad thing. — Noble Dust

I'm pretty sure that I suggested it can be bad when tradition is abused.

How would that help you? I don't get it. — Noble Dust

You don't need to get it. I got it. I am my Ultimate Authority, and that's every bit as silly as it sounds.

Now if you'll excuse me I have a train to catch.

I finally get it, thanks! I'm my own Ultimate Authority.

Maybe if it were possible for us to step back far enough we'd clearly see the Truth of Eternal Recurrence. Everyone's experienced déjà vu, after all. How much more proof do we need?

Hey @Noble Dust Maybe Nietzsche is my Ultimate Authority?

I said it was a rumor, not that it was God's Truth.

Hey @Noble Dust Is Dawkins my Ultimate Authority?

That's just his genes talking. Rumor has it they tend to be selfish.

Some dogs are more playful than others.

All dogs are playful?

Then someone figures out a new farming technique that further boosts productivity, and humans are able to store knowledge and teach future generations about this improved technique. It's an inevitable consequence of our ability to learn and teach. — Judaka

I’m in the middle of a book which theorizes that hunter gatherer’s had to be forced into agriculture because it was a much less desirable lifestyle. People were basically forced because armies were needed. For the masses, it’s only been relatively recently that it’s all been worth it. But now the masses feel, or rather complain about, the negative effects of calorie rich foods and foods they’re not well adapted to such as grains, legumes, and nightshades. Plus all the other toxins we’re exposed to. Most Americans are overweight and on some kind of medication. Not to mention our general sense of well-being.

That’s progress?

Progress as a general tendency is an abstraction, and all abstractions cloud our perception of real things. That's my angle, vague as it might be. — Jamal

Generally, my idea of progress would be degrowth/sustainability and a shift in values towards well-being over materialism. Not a popular view, even with myself if I’m honest.

To deal with this misunderstanding once and for all, my point is not that Pinker outright claims inevitable betterment over time, but rather that his thinking, and the idea of progress that underlies it and is common in our culture, tends towards that or depends on it unknowingly. — Jamal

I guess that I can only speak for myself but I’m not optimistic. Apparently, not even my ultimate authority (Pinker?) can convince me to believe in inevitable betterment over time.

You forgot to mention that the purpose, meaning, and value within it are shared.
— praxis

No I didn't, I mentioned that. — Noble Dust

The point that I was trying to make is that a religious community and traditionalism in general is constraining, both in openness to new ideas and in moral development. That’s not to say that progressivism is better than conservatism, it’s just pointing out the difference. An independent can defy a group and the leader of a group if what they’re doing is judged to be immoral.

I don't know what your ultimate authority is. My guess is if you feel that you don't have one, you're just not aware of what it is.

Well, maybe you can help me figure out who my ultimate authority is. I may get a clue if you would share who your ultimate authority is.

Just read what I've written with an open mind, applying the principle of charity, and resist the temptation to be pedantic or to leap to the defence of a thinker you admire, just because I appear to be attacking him. — Jamal

I don’t particularly admire Pinker and wasn’t jumping to his defense. I just don’t remember his argument for progress being elevated to capital P Progress or claiming inevitable betterment over time.

Ad homs can appeal to good character as well as bad.

In any event, you seem to be endorsing bias against religion.

In the memories of many readers—and in the experience of those in less fortunate parts of the world—war, scarcity, disease, ignorance, and lethal menace are a natural part of existence. We know that countries can slide back into these primitive conditions, and so we ignore the achievements of the Enlightenment at our peril. — Steven Pinker

This isn’t claiming “inevitable betterment over time”. If you’ve somehow shown that it is making that claim in other posts I’ve missed it.

An ad hominem is a kind of explanation for the inconsistency I guess.

In the OP? I don’t see the claim.

I agree that a monk may be susceptible to recruitment into military service due to the conditions that you mention. Fundamentally though, a monk is dedicated to renunciation.

the gap between progress and Progress (between real advances and the myth of inevitable betterment over time). — Jamal

I don’t remember, does Pinker claim inevitable betterment over time? I seem to recall warnings about anti-enlightenment (I think that’s the term he uses) movements, as I mentioned earlier.

In what way is that a biased statement? — Vera Mont

My assessment is primarily based on his explanation that the statement is “based largely upon personal experience” and the assumption that that experience was negative in terms of harmfulness.

The disciplines of monasticism and militarism are very similar in both psychology and practice. — Vera Mont

:chin: I fail to see the similarity between monk and soldier.

I generally consider you one of the reasoned voices on this type of subject. — T Clark

Curious that I find that surprising. Maybe it’s because he stated that “religions are experts in causing harm” and historically you seem to look down on that sort of biased statement towards religion.

I'm not going to go back and try to figure out what depth you're disappointed with. If you have anything specific in mind let me know, or not.

I'm perfectly willing to go into more depth but I can't tell exactly where you want to go.

A Muslim has faith in their religious authorities
— praxis

This is probably kind of close to blasphemy from a Muslim point of view. — Jamal

I'd be surprised if it weren't.

What they have faith in is the entire narrative of their belief system, with all it's wrinkles and curiosities, in the same way you have faith in whatever belief system you hold. — Noble Dust

All the wrinkles and curiosities of the Muslim narrative are centered around an authority figure, an ultimate authority, no less. If there's an ultimate authority in my worldview who or what is it? I suppose you might say something like science.

But you are bound by faith in whatever you believe in. Whether that constitutes "thinking for yourself" is open to debate at best, and whether "thinking for yourself" liberates you from being "constrained in moral development" (what does that mean?) is also up for debate. What exactly do you mean by thinking for yourself? — Noble Dust

I think that everyone is bound, at least to some extent, by their conditioning and ideologies and that this is inescapable. Maybe that's all that you're trying to say?

As for religion, it's as though you're only willing to acknowledge the positive aspects, to have your cake and eat it too, as the saying goes. You say that it gives the lives of believers a sense of purpose, meaning, and value. You forgot to mention that the purpose, meaning, and value within it are shared. Indeed, being part of something greater than yourself is part of why it can be so meaningful. The downside is obviously a loss of autonomy. For an example I will go back to the dark ages, back when religious pluralism was in full bloom. :snicker:

Proclamation of the First Crusade (1095)

The Turks, a race of Persians, who have penetrated within the boundaries of Romania even to the Mediterranean to that point which they call the Arm of the Saint George, in occupying more and more of the lands of the Christians, have overcome them, have overthrown churches, and have laid waste God's kingdom. If you permit this supinely for very long, God's faithful ones will be still further subjected....

I speak to those present, I send word to those not here; moreover, Christ commands it. Remission of sins will be granted for those going thither, if they end a shackled life either on land or in crossing the sea, or in struggling against the heathen. I, being vested with that gift from God, grant to those who go.

O what a shame, if a people, so despised, degenerate, and enslaved by demons would thus overcome a people endowed with the trust of almighty God, and shining in the name of Christ! O how many evils will be imputed to you by the Lord Himself, if you do no help those who, like you, profess Christianity!

Let those who are accustomed to wage private wars wastefully even against Believers, go forth against the Infidels in a battle worthy to be undertaken now and to be finished in victory. Now, let those, who until recently existed as plunderers, be soldiers in Christ; now, let those, who formerly contended against brothers and relations, rightly fight barbarians; now, let those, who recently were hired for a few pieces of silver, win their eternal reward. — Pope Urban II

Christ commands it, he informs. Many evils will be imputed to those who don't help by the Lord Himself, he warns. Eternal rewards will be given to those who participate, he promises.

That's a bit much, isn't it? Far fewer people living today would be persuaded by such authority because we see things differently.

If my ultimate authority is science or whatever, what happens if I were to defy its decrees? Would I be declared a heretic and ostracized by the scientific community and lose the sense of purpose, meaning, and value that I share with them? :fear:

I think the way you describe social and cultural institutions and practices is shallow. — T Clark

I don’t think much depth is needed to point out progress, at least where religion is concerned.

The separation of church and state for instance. Good progress, yes?