Ah.

It is admirable that Floyd turned his life around with the help of the church. After being found libel for fraud and rape, and facing scores of felony charges, there’s no sign that Trump’s going to turn his life around. Despite all that there’s also no sign that NOS, who’s been diligently defending Trump in this thread for years, thinks that he’s a scumbag. No Trump supporter would say that Trump’s a scumbag. If fact, many claim that he was chosen by God.

So when a person like NOS calls someone a scumbag it is meaningless.

Who received a bronze statue for BLM rioting? Oh, you mean the slavers statue that was pulled down. Were you a fan or something? Why do care so much about that?

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. :worry:

I think this only shows that the protesters were too stupid to run away from pepper spray and rubber bullets. Do they also piss into the wind?

Given that in life you also do a lot of other things, their effects mitigate eachother. If you once stole a loaf of bread, but you later regret it, work hard, earn money, and with it buy a hundred loaves of bread and give them to charity, then having stolen that one loaf once can be mitigated and then some. — baker

This is irrelevant to the question.

What is said to be imponderable is knowing in advance what consequence some particular action you did now will have in the future, given that you will also do a lot of other things and their effects will mitigate each other. But right now, we don't know what other things you'll also do, hence the imponderability. — baker

You're basically saying that it's impossible for me to make predictions. Okey dokey! :snicker:

What you describe above is more like the Jain doctrine, a type of karmic fatalism. Hindu or Buddhist doctrines of karma are different.
...
Instead of freestyling your ideas about karma and rebirth... — baker

You're claiming that karma & rebirth in Buddhism are not based on cause & effect?

Scientific textbooks and terms are not authorities.
— praxis

No, people just treat them as such. — baker

Some textbooks may be authoritative in the sense that they're considered accurate or true. A textbook is not an authority in the sense that it doesn't have the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience.

Faith in authority is essential in religion.
— praxis

Gosh darn, why do scientists stick to the definitions of scientific terms as found in scientific textbooks? — baker

Scientific textbooks and terms are not authorities.

See the definition of authority

For instance, I could ask a dozen questions about rebirth that no one could answer.
— praxis
I double dare you. — baker

1. Karma and rebirth are supposedly based on cause & effect. If true, there's a mountain of causes that, at death, would logically result in rebirth that is practically indistinguishable from the previous life. Yet the story goes that if you do a lot of dirty deeds in your life you will be reborn as a dirty cockroach or something. That doesn't make sense if karma and rebirth are based on cause & effect. It would be like I'm a human being one instant and the next instant I spontaneously turn into a dirty cockroach, just because I stole a loaf of bread or whatever. I should be reborn the same human bread stealing dirty deed doer that I was the instant before death, if karma and rebirth are based on cause & effect.

If you ask a "book reader" about this they will say that such things are imponderable, or to put it another way, the book they read from is fiction.

NOSism - fat-shaming someone by noting their similarities to Churchill.

It is an open book to those who are able to read. — Wayfarer

That doesn’t appear to be true though. For instance, I could ask a dozen questions about rebirth that no one could answer. It would be the same for questions about God. All anyone could say is that the subject is imponderable or beyond human comprehension. Yet rebirth and God are held to be truths, and it is necessary to not oppose these truths in order to be considered part of the faith. Scientific theories, medical practices, and piano concertos don’t need to be taken on faith in order to belong to those communities. Binding groups in a shared narrative, values, norms, etc is not the point in those disciplines. That is entirely the point in religion.

It's not that they 'ignore' that teaching, although they might. It's also because the main point of the Buddhist teachings is not simply an open book to anyone who happens upon it; or rather, that insofar as it is an open book, one has to learn to read it. The Buddha declares elsewhere that 'the dhamma that I teach is subtle, deep, profound, only perceivable by the wise' (my italics). Unlike empirical science, the kind of insight into emotional reactivity and attachment that the Buddha teaches is a first-person discipline. But, and especially in the early Buddhist texts, it is also stressed that this insight can be obtained by others, as that is the aim of the entire teaching. However not everyone will have that insight to begin with, so to that extent the possibility must be taken on trust. And that does amount to faith, although I understand the connotations of the term provoke strong reactions. — Wayfarer

It is necessary the same with all religions. If religion was an “open book” as you say, and accessible to anyone, there would be no need for religious authorities and nothing *special* or sacred with which to bind a community. Faith in authority is essential in religion.

Well, I don’t seem to be convincing you that the Big Lie is actually a lie so I gotta work on my Hitler thinking.

Correct. :up:

I guess your mind-numbing conclusion is that I’m a nazi.

Big Lie, capital letters, exactly as written by political operatives. Everything is decided for you. Your only duty (and ability) is to repeat it. You cannot do otherwise. But your sorcery theory of words suggests you’d blame them and not yourself for being their parrot. — NOS4A2

A big lie about a big lie written by political operatives? :chin: :snicker:

A big lie is a gross distortion or misrepresentation of the truth primarily used as a political propaganda technique. The German expression was first used by Adolf Hitler in his book Mein Kampf (1925) to describe how people could be induced to believe so colossal a lie because they would not believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously". Goebbels said that if you tell "a lie big enough" and regularly repeat it [by someone viewed as an authority], "people will eventually come to believe it."



Anyway, if you’re saying that the Big Lie is a big lie then that seems to mean that you believe the Big Lie and that Trump’s propaganda has succeeded in shaping your beliefs.

Why would anyone attend a political rally? It's so weird. — Michael

I guess it’s a cult thing.

I was just thinking how meaningless a life must be to flock around a creep like Trump as though he were the second coming of Christ. And indeed many of them claim he was chosen by God, whatever that means.

No. They saw a virtual candidate in Joe Biden, someone who didn’t leave his bunker and had abysmal attendance at his rallies, but got the most votes of any president ever. That’s the problem: you pretend Trump convinced everyone, but really they’re just watching your malfeasance. — NOS4A2

Remarkably, you’re using some of the Big Lie words verbatim, that Joe never left his bunker, had poor attendance at his rallies, and yet got the most votes in history. This strongly indicates that you believe these words have influential power. And you’re right, they’ve proven to be effective.

I personally didn’t attend any of Biden’s rallies. Does that somehow disqualify my vote for him? I simply chose what I thought was the much lesser of two evils.

Au contraire, with mere words Trump managed to convince millions that the election was stolen, despite all evidence, or rather lack of evidence, to the contrary. In fact, some of them believed it so fervently they stormed the nations capitol and intentionally disrupted congress.

As of September, around 380 people have been imprisoned because of January 6th. Imprisonment caused by mere words from your God-King.

Yes, people gain power through words. Complaining about trump's words is a worthwhile complaint. Words are what allow Presidents to do things. — flannel jesus

NOS doesn't believe that words have any power because like, they're not physical stuff. Nevertheless, he's used countless words over the years to defend his God-King in this thread.

Oh, you’re Scottish.

In short, I don't happen to find anything particularly "progressive" or "positive" about a society that results in true Nuclear holocaust where the entire planet becomes incapable of sustaining life, even if we do get to watch it all on our little iPhones or smartwatches before we succumb to radiation sickness. Do you? I'd much prefer the steady, predictable, and nuanced old world society where, sure things were simple - if not outright grueling at times - but at least humanity lived on whilst retaining the social communication skills that allowed society to progress in the first place. Wouldn't you? Seems like a reasonable opinion to hold but to each their own.. — Outlander

Most scientific and technical innovations until the scientific revolution were achieved by societies organized by religious traditions. Ancient pagan, Islamic, and Christian scholars pioneered individual elements of the scientific method.

And back in the good’ol days when things were simpler, you may not have had the convenience of recording your neighbor being burned at the stake for witchcraft (whatever the orthodoxy found disagreeable) on an iPhone but you could could still enjoy the spectacle.

The opposite for me. Don’t care for her old work.

Photo-realistic painting is seen by many artists as pointless, based on, why not just take a photo or use digital production? — universeness

Mostly agree and I struggle to paint more loosely and expressively. My current favorite painter is one of your countrymen. I’d love to be able to paint like Hester Berry.

I am still 'developing' my 'proportionality' and 'likeness' skills. — universeness

And yet the rendering of your niece appears to be near photographic fidelity, so clearly you can do it when motivated.

I guess the last thing I’ve done along those lines was during Covid. Previously posted in this topic…



With any luck my life won’t turn tragic enough to feel the need to express darker things.

Does such not make you angry? Do you see my annoyance at such, as just sour grapes on my part, or do you think that the abuse of the notion of art, that I think exists, and is caused by the rich, finding nefarious ways of 'investing' and inflating their wealth is 'acceptable?' — universeness

I don't consider that abusing art. Rich people's games like NFTs bother me because they abuse the environment, taking exorbitant amounts of energy to secure the files.

Though you couldn't get that perspective in your painting by plein-air as you'd probably be in the water. — Nils Loc

That figures because the photographer is a surf photographer and when I asked if he had any seascapes that's the only one he had. Below is some of his usual stuff. You may recognize Sandy's and Backdoor (Pipeline).




Speaking of plein-air in the water, the other day when I started the following small painting I was high and dry but only about an hour and a half later I was unexpectedly ankle-deep and had to stop before my pack got soaked. Would have turned out better if I had more time. :razz:



I just looked it up and the area is defined as a 'salt marsh' so I guess the water rose with the tide. I happened to know that the tide was high about an hour earlier though, because I surfed a bit down the coast. A lagging tide.

Hawaiian-style classical music, interesting.

I used a photo that a guy from Ohau sent me. He didn't say where it was and I guessed NE Ohau, judging by the rock formations, vegetation, and mountains. I actually posted the image because I remembered that you're from that area and might recognize the scene. I didn't know there was a beach there but that explains the tiny bit of sand color at the bottom of the photo.

Do you have any concern, about becoming a 'Bob Ross,' style artist? — universeness

:lol: No, not that there's anything wrong with that.

"I am an artist, not a fax machine or a photographer. If you want a facsimile or a photograph of a pretty scene, then don't come to me. As an artist, it is my remit to anger you, to invoke an emotional response from you, to intrigue you, to frighten you, to challenge you, to inspire you, to make you hate me and love me in the same confused breath. Can you even understand what a true artist is?" — universeness

He can remit however he likes, I don't care. I have a much simpler understanding of art.

Nice work, btw, and it is distinctive.

South of the Border, West of the Sun, Haruki Murakami

My least favorite Murakami so far.

Determined: A Science of Life Without Free Will, Robert Sapolsky

Strong argument against free will.

Just got my sweaty paws on Paul Auster's new book Baumgartner.

Thanks!

Been doing a lot of these small paintings with big brushes. I figure that if I keep at it I'll eventually develop a looser technique and some style.

I wonder if it is a morning or a sunset. — javi2541997

Hard to say since in the reference photo the sky is partly cloudy. Not exactly sure of the location either, but I'm guessing NE side of Ohau sometime before noon.

Statistically, this appears to be extremely rare. — baker

A fairytale, in other words.

I've just had a mini breakthrough in my meditation practice. My stress level has diminished substantially. I've been waking up and wanting to do my work rather than avoiding it (like a good little robot). — Nils Loc

That's how I get when meditation practice is going well. No resistance to good robothood.

Philosophers would tell us there is no free will either ( so who is responsible for making zombies or allowing us to see our zombie nature for what it is?) — Nils Loc

I just finished reading baboon guys new book Determined and he makes a strong argument for no free will. He would say that no one is responsible for making zombies, we arise from what came seconds before, minutes before that, and eons before that. There are no causes that are uncaused, he suggests in a very drawn-out manner.

Zombie nature is Buddha nature: empty.

Both binary code and DNA use finite set of symbols or elements to represent a wide range of sequenced information.

Perhaps real artificial intelligence will make us further question if there is a soul and what sentience is.

individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion, constitutional government and privacy rights.
— praxis

Therefore, no relation to the GOP since Nixon. — Vera Mont

MAGA morons may publicly bemoan the separation of church and state but that's because they want the influential power of an ultimate authority in their pocket. See the Rick Tyler quote a few posts above. They may also seem to want Trump to be a king rather than a representative. But their libertarian-like obsession with "FREEDOM" glaringly shows their liberalism. Trump couldn't make them want to take the Fauci ouchi, for instance, even though he took credit for its development. And when Pope Francis preached for good stewardship of the world and the climate they turned their backs on him.

It comes more from a religious perspective than a westernized liberal one. Eastern religion is heavily based on change and renewal, which allows themselves to be more open to change. Christian religion is more based on the teachings of Jesus/ the apostles which do not allow for such changes like A.I priest. — Isaiasb

The concept of the transient nature of existence is core to Eastern religion, sure, but I don't see how that supposedly makes them more open to change. Again I'll point out that there are both liberal and conservative practitioners in every religion, though particular traditions or sects may be more compatible with one or the other. For instance, Mahayana Buddhism is generally believed to be the more liberal branch of the tradition. In any case, Buddhists basically believe that sentient beings suffer because they can't accept change or realize the true nature of existence. There's the ideal and then there's the reality. Don't mistake the carrot for the moon, as the saying goes.

The true test will be in how they view real artificial intelligence. Will Western religions say they have souls? Will Eastern traditions say they are sentient beings who are reborn? I'm sure there will be no consensus East or West. Bound to shake things up a bit though.

Yes, that's what I used to think liberalism was. It did rise for a little while, c. 1960-1980. But what's that got to do with the conservatives' downhill slide from Gerald Ford to Donald Trump? — Vera Mont

We started with me asking about "the inevitable devolution of events from 1963 to the present". I'm still curious about that.

conservative liberals is an oxymoron — Vera Mont

From Wikipedia:

Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property and equality before the law. Liberals espouse various views depending on their understanding of these principles but generally support private property, market economies, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion, constitutional government and privacy rights. Liberalism is frequently cited as the dominant ideology of modern history.

Liberalism became a distinct movement in the Age of Enlightenment, gaining popularity among Western philosophers and economists. Liberalism sought to replace the norms of hereditary privilege, state religion, absolute monarchy, the divine right of kings and traditional conservatism with representative democracy, rule of law, and equality under the law.

In his defense Tyler wrote (in part):

For those who are posturing in a high and mighty stance of ostensible moral superiority, I would caution you against falling into the trap of modernism and the liberal watering down of truth. Your fathers, grandfathers and great grandfathers would have been entirely sympathetic and supportive of the preservation of a white super majority in America. They would have been utterly hostile to the concept of the mass nonwhite immigration that has ensued over the past half century. They would have never acquiesced to the schemes of forced racial integration foisted upon the states by a usurpatious federal government. By capitulating on these and other related issues, you are dishonoring your fathers and mothers of old in a flagrant and treacherous violation of the 4th Commandment.In the fulness of time, God will surely hold you accountable for this violation of his sacred law. As Isaiah 5:20 states, “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”

Wow, what a nutjob.

God don’t take kindly to the gays neither…

I don't know what that means. — Vera Mont

I asked my personal assistant to help explain…

Progressive liberalism and conservative liberalism are two different ideological perspectives within the broader spectrum of liberal political thought. While they share some common principles, they also have distinct differences. Here's a comparison and contrast of the two:

Progressive Liberalism:

• Role of Government: Progressive liberals generally believe in a more active and interventionist role for the government in addressing social and economic issues. They support government programs and regulations aimed at reducing income inequality, ensuring access to healthcare and education, and protecting the environment.
• Social Issues: Progressives tend to be more open to social change and social justice. They often advocate for civil rights, LGBTQ+ rights, and women's rights, and they are generally more accepting of multiculturalism and diversity.
• Economic Policy: Progressive liberals favor policies that address wealth inequality, such as progressive taxation, a higher minimum wage, and stronger labor protections. They may also support government ownership or control of certain industries, especially in healthcare and education.
• Environmental Policy: Progressive liberals tend to be strong advocates for environmental protection and may support regulations to combat climate change, promote renewable energy, and protect natural resources.
• Foreign Policy: Their foreign policy views can vary, but many progressives lean towards diplomacy, international cooperation, and humanitarian interventions rather than military force.

Conservative Liberalism:

• Role of Government: Conservative liberals, often referred to as classical liberals, believe in limited government intervention in the economy and individual freedoms. They generally advocate for a smaller government with a focus on protecting individual rights and liberties.
• Social Issues: Conservatives tend to be more cautious about social change and may be resistant to significant shifts in cultural norms or values. They often uphold traditional family values and may oppose policies like same-sex marriage or drug legalization.
• Economic Policy: Conservative liberals support free-market capitalism, deregulation, and lower taxes. They argue that a laissez-faire approach to the economy leads to greater prosperity and innovation.
• Environmental Policy: While conservative liberals may recognize the importance of environmental conservation, they are often skeptical of government regulations and prefer market-based solutions to environmental problems.
• Foreign Policy: Conservative liberals often advocate for a more restrained foreign policy, favoring non-interventionism and a focus on national sovereignty. They may be skeptical of international organizations and military interventions.

In summary, progressive liberalism tends to favor a more active government role in addressing social and economic issues, while conservative liberalism emphasizes limited government intervention, individual liberties, and free-market principles. These differences in ideology can lead to significant policy variations on issues such as healthcare, taxation, environmental protection, and social justice. It's important to note that within each of these broad categories, there is room for variation, and individuals may hold nuanced positions on different issues.

The rank-and-file are not interested in economics. Are not informed about economics. They're it it for the slogan. — Vera Mont

I guess what I’m thinking is that substantial economic pain can lead to civil war but a mere slogan only gets a guy wearing a pair of horns to force his way into the chambers of congress for a few hours.

Any far-right figurehead who assures them that they are important, valued, worthy of ruling the world the way they imagine they used to, will be followed. — Vera Mont

I read DeSantis’s book and in it he seems to paint a picture where pretty much everyone left of center is the elite, if only in attitude. Nonsensical populism that I doubt anyone actually buys.

Whether he wants a war - class, civil or foreign - is immaterial. It's going to happen, because that's the inevitable devolution of events from 1963 to the present. — Vera Mont

The rise of progressive liberalism? I think it would take more than a contrived ‘culture war’ to instigate an actual civil war.

The funny thing economically is that Bidenomics has been more successful in reviving the industrial sector than Trump was, so in a practical (rather than cultural) sense a large portion of Trump’s base should be supporting Biden.