I believe this to be the best cartoon of all time...

Gary Larson - The Far Side - Cows


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Can anyone explain what is meant by concepts like the “withering away of the state” in Marxist theory? — Apollodorus

Yeah, that's the theory that holds as much truth as, "I'll always love you."

This is just a friendly discussion. You have to realize that everybody sees the world differently. It's what makes life interesting.

I do understand what you are saying and from your point of view it makes perfect sense. Go with it. I choose to approach life differently, a path that has worked quite well for me.

Everybody has to find there own way in this world. The key is in believing in yourself 100% which is again why I have enjoyed speaking with you.

I gradually learned, by myself, that meaning is all around us and within us. — praxis

All realization is personal and much of it manifests much later in life.

non-intellectual (Zen does not exist and does not exist).
— synthesis

Fixed that for ya. — praxis

Not quite.

Intellectual - Zen exists.
Non-intellectual - nothing (intellectual) exists.

The money can be used to save more lives, so you are committing far more murder if you don't take the money and use it for good. — Maw

This is exactly how the elite think (but, of course, most of them never get around to using it for good).

So what I'm hearing is there's no truth, no future, no hope, but there's no climate change crisis, everyone is nuts, science is a lie, time is an illusion, everything is subjectively constructed, absurd and hopeless, and worrying about it is hopeless, because you can't know anything! And I'm hearing this from someone who claims to have: — counterpunch

Well, obviously somebody wasn't done with this conversation. That was quite the rant!

cp, the difference between you and I is that you subscribe to one reality (and a popular one, at that). I, OTOH, subscribe to many (and there are infinite realities). For instance...

...and please forgive me if I have used this example previously, but it is fairly easy to point out the obvious flaws in science's language, mathematics. I am sure you would agree that each object in The Universe occupies unique spacial coordinates and is therefore subject to unique Universal forces.

It would follow that each object in The Universe is (technically) one of a kind. Therefore, exactly what does "2" mean? Does this render the entire system of mathematics as simply an approximation, or worse, a mere convenience? I rather believe the later to be the case.

And if this is the case, what are the ramifications? Has science been exposed for the poseur it really is?

Don't feel bad, there are Zen students who practice for decades and never "get it."

You (and most) are confused because the conversation goes back and forth between the intellectual (Zen has meaning) and the non-intellectual (Zen does not exist).

I am not sure why some people get it and others don't (as an aside, it was one of the only questions I ever asked my teacher and he just shrugged his shoulders, as well). Regardless, it's just the way it is.

And by all means, have a good laugh!

Many serious Zen students (including myself) do not consider themselves Buddhists.
— synthesis

... because you don’t subscribe to its teachings, right? — praxis

Not really. Zen is the essence of Buddhism. The rest of Buddhism is all of the intellectual teachings that should lead to meditation (Zen means meditation in j.).

Generally speaking, Zen students are those who are the purists and wish to 'cut to the chase,' that is, if you get it (that meditation IS the path), what's the point of the rest? For many, the rest is very important and others never really get much into meditation at all,as Buddhism is a very nice religion in and of itself.

Although Zen students are technically Buddhists (I guess), many of us choose not to engage the intellectual parts any more than is necessary (only to keep us on track). A common "intellectual aid" in Zen would be the popularity of the Heart sutra, a short writing that comes about as close as you can (intellectually) to what Zen is about.

One doesn't have to be a Buddhist to endorse its teachings.
— FrancisRay

That's confused. — baker

Many serious Zen students (including myself) do not consider themselves Buddhists. Buddhism was created by the historical Buddha as a guide for those who (for whatever reasons) could not realize the path without sequential teachings..

Racists, homophobes, sexists, Nazi sympathisers, etc.: We don't consider your views worthy of debate, and you'll be banned for espousing them.

I understand that these are in the site guidelines but vehemently disagree that people should be banned for espousing them. Understanding how people like this think is critical to an overall understanding of any society.

Free speech was is a constitutional right that has been given more thought and is held in the standing it is for many reasons, paramount among them being that those who hold questionable views can be exposed to others. Otherwise, these folks become more and more isolated in their views and often more radicalized in their actions.

The idea is to help other people where you can, not isolate them in the hope that they will somehow disappear. The best hope we can have is to encourage discourse so such an individual may come to reconsider their position. A free and open society must allow freedom of speech for this and many other reasons.

You should believe whatever you choose to believe for whatever reasons you believe it is appropriate to believe things. Your reasons for believing things are obviously very different from the reasons science believes it is appropriate to believe things, but I would not ask you to adopt scientific epistemic standards as a personal philosophy. You should continue to believe whatever it is that has you wishing humankind extinct! — counterpunch

cp, I believe we have beat this to death.

Always enjoy our conversation. I wish there were more people like you here.

See you on another thread...

Well, clearly, you're one of those end consumers - believers of many wonderful things, who need hardly notice that science is saving the world, because science is true; for while that does imply what you believe is wrong, there's no need for you to do that math! Afterall, if you did the maths, you'd agree with the science! — counterpunch

As if the world by did not survive without man's science for 4.5B years and will somehow fail to manage without the same after we are but a footnote? You truly are a homer!

And what I believe is irrelevant, instead, it is your companion, reality, which takes precedence. But instead of seeing reality as this fixed mathematics formulation spitting-out drivel like 345.3975 g/l or 5,456,231 m/s, actual reality has no doors or windows to peak through, nor any language, as it can only be experienced (which you do all the time). You are simply unaware.

But let’s take a hypothetical universe where the only governing facet of reality is “the power of belief”. Let’s suppose that reality (physics, chemistry, biology etc) in this universe shifts to align with the most dominant beliefs in descending order. Each person is initially an equal unit of belief and has the freedom to choose to believe in something someone else believes in or to deny/ignore it in favour of other beliefs. And so this universe is governed by the collective - the “popular vote” - the most commonly held set of beliefs. — Benj96

Look out any window.

"You cannot have everything until you let everything go."

Reality is consistent and universal in nature on the macroscopic, causal scale we inhabit. Therefore, what is scientifically true, is true for me and you, and everyone else the same. — counterpunch

As stated previously, your reality is only true for a particular moment (in which we lack access). I will give you (that despite this inconvenient idea), we muddle along with our guesses, approximation, and other assorted attempts to make sense of our world, but this not what I am getting at, instead, to truly understand the transient nature of all things knowable places knowledge in another sphere.

Knowledge, although true in a particular moment, is constantly changing, like a Kamikaze gnat we endlessly chase without success. Seeing knowledge in transition is very different than seeing it statically. It is like the aphorism, "You can have everything until you let everything go."

Debate about the precise nature of truth is somewhat of an aside; yet integral to the question of where we place our trust in face of the impending existential crisis. — counterpunch

Your "existential crisis" is what you reap when you plant intellectually altered seeds. Worrying about the end of the world (no matter how this might come about) seems rather silly as this is the fate of all things (they come and go). This is not to disparage your magma theory, but should it not stand on its own instead of on the shoulders of baseless fears that have over-run the last two generations?

Do I seem insecure enough to you? — gikehef947

Yeah, and quite angry, as well.

Good luck to you!

Ironic, given that you've just been telling me how things will be in 500 years! How is that possible? — counterpunch

It's not possible, but within the context of this conversation, it fits the narrative.

Intellectualizing is like people who are speaking in a specific language/context. Bring in another that is not versed in this language (from another time/culture) and it makes no sense to them.

You are staying within a specific frame of reference and saying this is the truth. I. OTOH, stray from the same and suggest that your truth very narrow and that there are as many potential truths as there are moments in time.

Before you blow a gasket, imagine somebody coming back from the year 2521 and telling you how it is. What would you think about truth then? How about if 99.9% of everything we thought to be true is no longer?

I know for you it doesn't matter and that's fine. Whatever works for you is what you need to roll with. Keep in mind that the biggest mistake people make (vis a vis other people) is assuming that their reality is shared (or worse, that it's universal). Then, they spend the rest of their lives attempting to convince everybody else that this is the case. It's probably the most common cause of relationship failure.

Reality worked the same way 500 years ago as it does today. — counterpunch

Reality (at any particular moment) NEVER changes. It is what it is. It is our thinking that changes as we are always attempting to catch-up with moments only visible in the rear-view mirror.

Combine that with the idea that we can not access any particular moment in real time (we have no access to the present) and you begin to see the magnitude of the dilemma.

New Yorker Cartoon caption (below sketch of 2 guys chatting)

Last summer I tried using prostitutes and found it surprisingly affordable. — Bitter Crank

That's pretty damn funny!

f you believe that the disparity of individuals (genetics?) explains differences in wealth, you have an adolescent's view of society. You better keep looking at the NBA. As far as I know, the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few is explained in terms of robbery and murder. The most outlaw and scoundrel takes the jackpot. The super scoundrels control the government and exercise power so that their crimes do not land them in jail. Trump is the symptom. He is not Jefferson. He is not Roosevelt. He is an idiot, a manifestation that you end up in jail if you don't have enough money to avoid it. In Evil you trust. I'm afraid you're out outside of Christianity, of the morality indeed. — gikehef947

I get all that but it's just the part that fits your narrow narrative. Tell you what, you accomplish what Trump has and then you can talk. I am no great Trump fan, as well, but you have to look at all things with balance. Do you believe that somehow you are intellectually enlightened and half the country are babbling idiots? If this is the case, then it is you who thinks as a child.

[quote="gikehef947;526596"You can study contemporary history. Wikileaks, for example. In a world where the happiness of a few depends on the unhappiness and death of the majority, an attempt is made to condemn the messenger who publishes blood crimes. Do you know why former American leaders avoid leaving the country? It is not for the love of the country. Kissinger has spent decades on US soil avoiding activating an international arrest warrant for his responsibility in the criminal government of Augusto Pinochet. Are you read the parable of the temptations of Jesus in the desert? You have given in to the temptations of the devil and the worst thing is how little money must have been enough for you to bow down to him.[/quote]

Are we speaking of politics or religion here? Pick your poison, please.

Everybody knows all of this. Empires are what they are. They do good and they do bad but they are all a product of human nature. Should we all try to make things better? Of course, but man is who he is. Try not to only look at the bad. It will make you only a very unhappy fellow.

[quote="gikehef947;526596"If you regards Biden as the left, you only manifests simplicity . Bernie Sanders is to the right of the ideology of any European Social Democratic party. Someone incapable of defending health coverage for the entire population, unemployment benefits, paid parental leave and the care of dependent parents, retirement and the protection of the most marginalized groups belongs to the left. They are absolute duties, performed in those states where bandits do not extract all the wealth of the nation through the government action.

Biden is a combination of many bad influences plus he is the consummate corrupt politician (besides being a moron). You ever listen to this guy speak? I have for the past 50 years. The guy is not exactly a Rhodes Scholar.

And if you think he is really interested in helping people, you haven't been paying much attention. It's all bullshit. They have had the chance to help people since the 60's and instead they have turned American cities into vile cesspools of hopelessness, dependency, despair, and death.

They care...right!

[quote="gikehef947;526596"No billionaire has been able to concentrate so much wealth except by stealing the present and future of entire generations inside or outside the country. If they are so patriotic, let them give half of their fortune to others. What measures do successive governments take? Lower his taxes. And you think it's good.[/quote]

And isn't it amazing that almost all of these billionaires are Democrats. How could that be possible? Politics is a scam, always has been, always will be. The only reason that people organize to to grab power and money. That's99% of it. The rest of bullshit for the masses.

[quote="gikehef947;526596"Gospel is too complex for Kindergarten. Keep watching the NBA. It is the Disney channel for adults.[/quote]
No need to demonstrate your insecurity by attempting to put others down. It adds nothing to the conversation.

Scientific principles explain how things work for real. Is that not miraculous? — counterpunch

For real? Nothing in science that is thought to be true today will be in 500 years, so how is that "real?" This is not to say that I cannot use science, but you have to take into account that this knowledge is transient. Taking this position allows, (no, insists) that the individual consider other possibilities (in my situation, alternative medical treatments) critical to those who strive to push the frontiers of current practices.

Okay, so now you've switched to reality as a Platonic ideal argument against science as truth. But here's your problem; science is a practical perspective on truth. It works insofar as knowledge corresponds to reality, so your distant idealism is false in practice. Reality exists, we experience it, and can form generalisable laws about how it works - and then apply those laws to create technologies that function. — counterpunch

We exist in two different domains I share your world of relative intellectual truth, but move into another when critical thinking is no longer useful (accessed through meditation). This other sphere is where Truth is absolute but inaccessible (intellectually).

This is what you rail against for no reason I can ascertain.

For me, truth is demonstrated by a functional relationship between knowledge, action and consequence. It's true because it works! — counterpunch

Now we get to the heart of the matter.

You say that truth is demonstrated by a "functional relationship" between knowledge, action, and consequence. You go on to say, it's true because it works. So, how is this different from those in the past who believed that it was the gods that made things work. Wasn't their rationale just as valid? There existed a solid relationship between knowledge, action, and consequence. Made perfect sense to them. And it was true (to them) because it worked!

For you, it is omniscience or idiocy! — counterpunch

Not at all. The Truth is present. We simply cannot appreciate it. What we do is use our primordial intellect to guess and then refine those guesses over time. Wouldn't it make sense to take such into account?

I am no more anti-science than I am anti-love, but I can no more understand the former than I can the later.

It is the door that makes the room functional.

Okay, if you'll consider the possibility that in theory, there is a scientifically rational, systematic application of technology that is the right way to go about a prosperous sustainable future - we might agree to differ on what we each mean by truth. — counterpunch

I never disagreed with any of this. My point was that you can not actually understand it. You are working within a system that produces results based on a flawed platform.

I've really never chatted anyone scientifically-oriented who would disagree with this.

Marx's critique of capitalism is beyond brilliant and has already gone down in history as such, but what he and Frederic did with the social interpolation was create a succession of events that still creates desperation and death one hundred and seventy years later.

Believing that humanity's salvation could be found within governmental structure is one of the greatest miscalculations of all-time.

If you believe that to be the case, how can explain the fact that I have been able to be quite successful professionally? What I do takes a great deal of experience and skill. How would that be possible?

Just consider the possibility that there might be other ways to go about doing things.

Perhaps better ways?

Sorry, the above comments were made to gikehef not praxis.

What you call "communism" I call Christianity. — gikehef947

That's fair. Marxism/communism is very much like a religion.

The only thing that is well distributed in capitalism is poverty for the majority and violence for the rest of the world. — praxis

That's false. There will always be a disparity of everything between individuals. It's just the way people are. Capitalism has its issues, no doubt, but look at what it has done to raise people out of poverty. If you don't believe this to be the case, you need to go back and study the history of the 16th-17th-18th-19th centuries. Life was brutal beyond belief.

The government is taken over by the lobbies. That D. Trump was crowned president says it all. The wolf and the fox guarding the chicken coop. The United States has not even been able to convict a guy who tried to carry out a self-coup or put him behind bars. Alberto Fujimori succeeded and, despite everything, Peru condemned him and remains in the Barbadillo jail. Today's Peruvian democracy is healthier than that of the United States. Is it acceptable? — praxis

You need to get over the Trump thing. Look at the fool who is president now. This guy was a joke in Delaware 50 years ago. Now he is just pathetic puppet of the left.

Next? Ban rival political parties, suspend civil liberties, ban unions, have thousands of political opponents assassinated and impose martial law ... and make unimaginable to think another thing. This was fascism: the operation of government for the benefit of corporations and the wealthy. — praxis

Sounds very much like the left's agenda.

The Germans of the interwar period, the non-Jews, had the same opinion as you: that capitalism was a magnificent system for doing good & funnies business. The Polish did not think exactly the same. The fun business here is murder there.
This is unacceptable. It is outside of Christianity. — praxis

You have one narrative and every single thing has to fit into it. You need to open your mind a bit and see that everything is not black and white.

The entire Marxist thing was put in the dumpster a few decades ago.

I do not agree with your assessment of the state and nature of knowledge. — counterpunch

What case can you make that man has any really grasp of reality? That can man understand anything? Remember, just because you can make something work does not mean that you have any real understanding. After all, the cave man used fire. Did s/he understand fire? There are, of course, many contemporary examples of many practical uses of things in where there is no understand (actually, everything :).

Technology based on scientific principles - works within a causal reality, and what is more the closer the technology approximates the scientific principle, the better the technology works. — counterpunch

I keep attempting to point out that your scientific principles have a very short half-life, soon to be replaced by the next batch, and the next batch after that, ad infinitum.

I think your magma energy idea is a great one. Are people doing serious research?

Recognizing the truth value of science provides the rationale to apply technology as suggested by a scientific understanding of reality, and so - you see why I am forced to dismiss your subjectivist, relativist, skeptical, nihilistic - rejection of truth and/or morality. — counterpunch

I would be that I have used science a great deal more than have you. It's not that I don't recognize its value, it's just that I also recognize its limitation, something I feel is much more important.

Are you denying the relative nature of all things knowable (excluding morality)? Rule one...all things knowable are subject to constant change. And I do not reject truth, I just categorize it into realtive and absolute.

It's not that I care particularly what you choose to believe, but that my approach to sustainability is based on the existence of an objective reality - of which we are reliably able to establish valid knowledge. — counterpunch

We need more affordable (clean) energy. Mining magma might be a good sustainable solution. Need more be said?

Like everything, you gotta take the bad with the good.

I don't really know that much about formal religion, per se, but the people who I do know who are quite knowledgeable (and from what I have read) seem to believe that (on balance) it seems to be a positive force for individual and social good.

Perhaps you are better informed than am I.

In my opinion, all the standard bearers of American capitalism who are patriots could demonstrate their patriotism by giving half of the wealth they have accumulated to the rest of their compatriots whom they have not stopped plundering. — gikehef947

I believe you are making this an emotional thing and therefore becoming idealistic. Economics is more about human nature.

Communisim is really bad news, and communism is a pipe-dream. I think everybody understands this (or should if they are aware of 19th/20th century history).

Capitalism works really well but needs to be regulated properly. The problems we have been having over the past 50-100 years have to do with two factors, political corruption and the corruption of markets. This is what happens when man gets involved with anything but the amazing thing is that even though this system is incredible distorted (by corruption), it still functions.

Much of the corruption has come from the socialization of almost every damn thing. The more government gets involved, the more opportunity there is for funny business. The solution is to clean house. We could do with a lot less government, but the government we do have needs to function properly.

It matters because there's a difference between what we actually experience and what we take on faith or intellectualize.

No serious Zen student will speak of their own path. Even if you thought it appropriate, it is not possible to convey because it is non-intellectual (and 100% experience). you understand another through their actions.

[quote="praxis;525869"I think thinking about things and theorizing can be thoughtful and thorough. Faith ain't noth'n to tilt your nose up at either. However, if we have an aversion to such things, for whatever odd reason, then what is left to have faith in but our own experience. — praxis

There is nothing wrong with anything (in absolute terms), it's all about intention. Intellectualizing is obviously an extremely important part of what we do, BUT, it is how you view and how you use this tool which determines outcome.

It is one thing to think something, it;s another to believe that your thoughts are true in any universal sense. Although they may come close to your own truth, it is only that way for that specific moment as all things knowable are in constant flux.

Faith is very important and I have always been closest with those who have great faith (mostly religious folks). There are many ways to seek truth and religion is one way that has created comfort for a great many over the centuries.

If you are able to give up your critical mind when it comes to other people, I believe you will find that simply observing the quality of another's existence will give you the best insight as to whether their path is working.

What could be worse than having the pressure of having the rest of humanity believe that you were the one who figured it out!
— synthesis

I've thought about it, and these are my thoughts. More than that I cannot say. I can explain my reasons for believing what I believe, and my philosophy points to something external to me. My thoughts are either interesting to others, or they're not - but don't imagine they are a hair shirt to me. I'm hopeful in face of it all because, from what I find I must accept, it's possible to deduce a strong rationale for a clear plan of action to secure a prosperous sustainable future, consistent with maintaining freedom! Hurray! — counterpunch

The reason I enjoy conversing with you is that believe in yourself 100%! This is extremely rare and I am not sure I've met another in this forum who is like this. Just the same, that doesn't mean that I have to buy into your reality (even though you think it is airtight).

The premise that you are actually living your beliefs (and I agree with many of them) is wonderful. You should feel good and I hope you enjoyed that beer. I don't really expect anybody to understand my point of view. I am not here to change the world, I am here only to pass the time while enjoying conversation with folks that still know how to think. That's all.

Either you're fully enlightened or this is one of those theoretical or faith things, which you seem to frequently pooh-pooh. — praxis

It doesn't matter what I am. Think about it this way...

If you have a body, most likely you are going to suffer...illness, accident, death (of yourself or a loved one/friend). Different people experience different degrees of suffering depending on a number of factors.

Again, to suffer is to be human, how you deal with the suffering is what we are chatting about. You can make an analogy with pain. As you are most likely aware, a great deal of pain is mental/psychological. Once you understand the nature of pain (the primary reason the historical Buddha chose sitting meditation as the preferred method, that is, pain is your best teacher), everything changes. And as I have said previously, once you understand one thing, you understand ever thing.

Enjoyed the conversation.

Have a good one!

There are no simple clean answers, but maybe that proper and how it should be — Gregory

No need to worry about how it should be. Spend all of your energy doing what you believe is right and your life will unfold nicely.

The key is for you to find your own way. There are as many ways to the mountain-top as there are people.

Believe in yourself 100%!

Although cliche, it's all about the journey.

It's because the government is eventually corrupted by people who lie, cheat, and steal. It's the way it has always been.

There have been libraries of books written about all of this, but try to keep in mind that there is good and bad in everything. Looking back over the last couple of hundred years, it appears as if erring on the side of too much freedom is the way to go.

There will never be paradise in this universe. — Gregory

Buddhism is not about paradise. It is about understanding your true nature and where you stand in relation to The Universe. The idea is not to "eliminate suffering," it is to accept it as a normal part of life, as it is not what happens to us that is the problem, instead, it is the reaction to what happens.

Fully enlightened people have lived brutal lives with all kinds of suffering. They just don't see it that way. For them, it's just the way it is. Not good, not bad. Just is.