First of all, it is important to highlight the fact that I am not taking part in the critique of Pinker on the usefulness or uselessness of irregular verbs. Yet, I guess he is raising very good points regarding learning. As I perceived this morning, we just learned that the past of think is thought and not "thinked.". But rather than having a "logic" in its conjugation, it is just a mix of etymology and pleasure to the tongue.

On the other hand, he raised another point to consider of. Regular verbs are predictable, while irregular are chaotic for a child or learner. Meanwhile regular verbs just need an "-ed" in the ending, irregular verbs have different conjugation. the past tense of ring is "rang" but the the past tense of buy is "bought" and some verbs such as "cut" doesn't mutate. It keeps the same form, "cutted" doesn't exist.

Well, I am interested in understand why this happens in all languages apart from its etymology, and why people keep the irregular verbs when they are so chaotic.
What is proven with some cases and experiments, is the fact that children tend to use logic when they do not recognise a verb. For example: they mistakenly say "patted a dog" instead of "pet a dog", etc... because when they do not know a specific verb they just conjugated in the regular form... as it should be, right?

My point is not absolutely remove irregular verbs, but to state that they are learned just because memory.

It is clear to me where irregular verbs in English come from. What is twisted (in my honest opinion) is the conjugation. As Pinker noticed in his book, irregular verbs are idiosyncratic, so we do not have any chance other than to memorise why the past-tense of think is tought and not thinked. It is just the exception to the rule.  When some modern words came into common parlance, such as fax, no one had its past tense form, but obviously everyone adopted the regular form: "faxed". It's less chaotic.

many words were not used because of the way they rolled off the tongue, "thinked" is not easy to say.

But what puts the brakes on theories like that is that — Sir2u

This point is interesting because Steven Pinker also provides some lines about it.
Pinker states that the very obliviousness to the details of the verb that makes a rule so powerful can let it blindly jam a suffix onto the end of an inhospitable sound. The result can be uneuphonious tongue-twister such as edited ir sithxs. Examples like these are never found among the irregulars, which all have standard Anglo-Saxon word sounds such as "grew", which please the ear and roll off the tongue.

Thank you Ludwig for your answer.

The consequence is that what are rules for language learners are habits for first-language speakers, and that use and practice determine what the rules are. (The same applies, nowadays, to dictionaries, as I'm sure you are aware.) — Ludwig V

I agree in this point. You even have read my mind because I was about to post some lines related to how these rules work when you are not a not a native speaker but a learner.
When I learned English in both school and college, my teachers never explained to me why regular verbs with "-ed" and irregular have exceptions. Yet, when I failed more than one English grammar text, those teachers simply said: "please study harder the English grammar"
But according to Steven Pinker, it is not something to be ashamed of. I didn't have the rules in my mind, so I simply put  "-ed" in the verbs, whose irregular form I hadn't learned yet.

Grammatical irregularities (which don't occur only in verbs) are a serious nuisance to learners. Sadly, use and practice pay little attention to their problems — Ludwig V

All children (and myself included) make error in the speech like this: "My teacher holded the baby rabbits and we patted them"
Berko Gleason analyzed this pattern in an experiment with 4 and 7 years old kids.
Gleason stated that children are not parrots who just play back what they hear. Children therefore are not like pigeons in a Skinner box, who increase or decrease the frequency of responses in reaction to contingencies of reinforcement.

You mentioned Chomsky and yes, he and Eric Lenneberg are pioneers in this field and they both stated that children's ability to generalize constructions such as the regular past tense is actively acquired by a special rule-forming mechanism in the mind of the child.

All languages force to their speakers to memorize thousands of arbitrary words. Languages differ in their division of labor between simple words and grammatical combinations, and some, such as Native American languages, have fewer words and more rules. But even in these languages speakers cannot deduce the meaning of most words from their sound, and must commit whole words to memory.

Don't you feel anxiety when you have limited time to do whatever or take any decision?

God's Pauper: Saint Francis of Assisi, Nikos Kazantzakis.

Letters to the Time/Space of Fond Memories, Kenzaburo Oe.

3. Posts should only be editable for X minutes. — Leontiskos

This would be unfair.

What do you consider to be the best 2 Murakami books? — Tom Storm

A difficult question to answer because my selection is personal and maybe some would disagree with me. I have read 14 books by Murakami and I consider as the best:

Hear the Wind Sing and Pinball 1973 (in the Spanish edition these come together in the same book). They are the first novels written by him. Fantastic, full of imagination. Concise and elegant.

Novelist as vocation. Murakami writes essays often. This one is an important book to understand him better. Nevertheless, what I learned afterwards is that the key to success and life is humility.

The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle by Haruki Murakami. — praxis

A masterpiece! you will love it.

@Noble Dust

I remember you showed me "nobody here" vaporwave song around the last year. It makes me feel nostalgia while I am alone in my home listening to it.
Interesting, right? This song can make us feel different moods depending on the context.

Thanks friend! To be honest, I enjoy learning these things. I appreciate your commitment to help me out to learn and discover facts about your language. :up:

Yes, Gjergj Kastrioti is his real name. — TheMadMan

I going to give it a try and pronounce both consonants and vowels:

Gjergj: I guess it is similar to "George" and the J is silent, but the last gj is complex to me. I do not know if it is an accent or just consonants.

Kastrioti: I pronounce it as "cÁstrioti" with a big accentuation in the vowel.

I recorded my voice pronouncing the name! :smile:

If you ask me, its like the story of the fox and the "sour" grapes. Its hard to let go of western dualistic way of thinking and thats what zen requires. It wants to push beyond logic and arrive to what is. So they use the excuse of the "hippy mode" to discard it altogether. — TheMadMan

I agree. Western world cannot get rid of dualism and other metaphysical stuff... I think it is a shame because the world is not only centralised here. Tao Te Ching is important as much as Locke, for example.



On the other hand, I saw the video of Skanderbeg.

I am not an expert on Ottoman wars/time, but after seeing the video I do understand why he is considered a national hero in Albania. The commentator of the video explains pretty well how Skanderbeg defended Albanian frontier and territory but most important, how he acted with cleverness. It is impressive how in a small land, he survived the attacks of the overwhelming soldiers of Ottoman empire.

Another interesting fact: Skanderbeg in Spanish is said Jorge Castriota (Albanian: Gjergj Kastrioti)

That's why I find the Kyoto school philosophers and D. T. Suzuki very helpful on bridging that gap. — TheMadMan

Yeah, I agree. Asian philosophy - specifically regarding to zen or ethics - is impressive and it is pretty developed. What I do not understand is why it is underrated is the Western world. Some "philosophers" or "thinkers" consider their principles just to have fun in a "hippy mode"

In Albanian history you might find the story of Gjergj Kastriot Skënderbeu most impressive: — TheMadMan

Thank you so much for that recommendation. I am a bit busy right now, but I promise I will see it later and comment later on! :up:

I agree. The different cultures and languages of this world are that varied that is nearly impossible, or at least very difficult, to have a deep look on them.
I have always been interested in Japanese culture and I read books and some stuff on the topic. But, I am not going to lie, language is a barrier regarding to understand Japanese people. Yet, I think it is worthy to at least have a look, without the necessity of being an expert.
On the other hand, I am currently having a big interest in Greek culture and Balkan history. So, I appreciate your help to make me learn news things. Nonetheless, language and phonetics are still issues for me... the use of Albanian consonants seem to be complex, but worthy to try!

We do not have umlaut in the vowels and our consonants are not so expressive. With the exception of the double RR, in perro. :smile:

Yes it could be a name of last name, probably in Kosovo — TheMadMan

Interesting!

I think I am saying "interesting" a lot when I interact with you by the way! :lol:

From an english POV yes but for us silent letters don't exist, we pronounce everything. — TheMadMan

So, you pronounce each vowel or consonant in the words, right? The phonology in Albanian seems to be interesting, indeed!

J itself is pronounced as Y in you, without the G it would be pronounced Yika. — TheMadMan

I see. :up:

Also fyi Gjika is not a word in Albanian. — TheMadMan

Exactly. I have read somewhere that Gjika is a name or last name. When I searched Gjika yesterday in Google, it appeared different people from Albania. So, I guess that such a noun is related to persons and not objects.

Thank you for your response!

The only influence Greek phonetics might have had is in southern Albania. The dialect there is very different from the rest, especially north. — TheMadMan

I understand. I guess dialects are a curious topic in most countries of the world. We have the same debate in Spain. For example: In cities like Madrid or Valladolid, they tend to speak in a neutral phonetic, but as much as you go further to the south, the accent switches drastically. I do not see it as a problem, but it could be a barrier in communication.

Gjika is pronounced more like Jika than Gika.
We pronouce G - Gëh as in Game.
And Gj as J in Jacket. — TheMadMan

Oh, wow! I was wrong. The G is silent not the J in the word Gjika. I believe that I have the sound in my mind and I can give it a try and pronounce the word!

But I would bet that literacy was more influenced by Latin. Since after 3rd century A.D Albania became very much influenced by the roman Catholicism. — TheMadMan

The Spanish vocabulary too, indeed! We had both Greek and Latin influences in our syntax, lexicon and phonetics. But I guess the latter is the one which has been used the most in the development of our language. Yet, another interesting fact: Spanish uses the letter "Y" from Greek, but Catalan uses "i" from Latin. I think they sound equally but the grammar is obviously different.

Hello again, :smile:
I have read interesting data regarding to our conversation that we had two days ago.

The paper is about a brief review on Greek language, syntax and its evolution. The author says:

...But the presence of the ancient Greek language is not surprising. There were languages in the Balkans of the Illyrian and Thracian groups that would not be attested for centuries, if ever. The modern survivor is Albanian, which does not emerge into history until the end of the Middle Ages (mentioned, 1284; attested, 1464), yet which cannot have been anywhere else all that time, while bearing the influence of surrounding languages on it. As in Anatolia, the speakers of unattested indigenous languages become literate by learning Greek. But the matter is largely speculative.

A good and interesting example regarding to the pronunciation of vowels: The name "Ghicas": (Gjika)

In Albanian it is written as "Gjika", but it is pronounced with just a G because Modern Greek γκ is used to write "g" as a stop. Like omitting the J. So, we have to pronounce it like saying "ghicas"

Is this correct? How much the Greek phonology have influenced in Albanian pronunciation? :smile:

My mood of this morning.

It has passed a while since the last time I have heard this iconic song for melancholics.

Anyone agree????? — Noble Dust

I like it, good song and bass!

My pleasure, I would ask for you to return the favor but 7 years of watching telenovelas when I was a kid already did that. — TheMadMan

:rofl: :up:

I can assume that you could understand me if you listen me speaking!

What was challenging for me about Spanish was that when I went to learn it, all the French I ever learned decided to come out in place of Spanish. I didn't even realize I remembered any French, but there it was. :grin: — frank

Did French came out in place of Spanish because of words or sounds? What an interesting thought indeed. As a Spaniard, I consider French a complex and different language from mine. Yet, Portuguese, Italian and even Greek are similar in pronunciation. It is true that Greek vocabulary is very different from Spanish one, but we speak so similar. It is not the same case regarding French: they have a different vocabulary and complex sounds in vowels and accents.

On the other hand, if French comes out while learning Spanish, I recommend you to check Catalan whenever you have free time to do so. Catalan is a mix of both Spanish and French and maybe you could like it.

They sound more like...: — TheMadMan

Thank you for helping me to understand them and how to pronounce it. Another thing that I learned today!

My guess is some chinese dialect — TheMadMan

Yes, I agree. Regarding Chinese dialects we have to add another complex task: the ability for recognizing the ideograms! if I cannot read an ideogram, it would impossible to replicate the sound in mind...

mmmm... Grammar and conjugation could be challenging since it is complex in an unfamiliar way.
Syntax I think its simpler, vocabulary its a lot of new unfamiliar words. — TheMadMan

I understand. It is challenging because it has both unfamiliar words and grammar.

Unusual letters to pronounce might be: C Ç Ë Nj Zh, although it would depend on one's native language. — TheMadMan

I think rather than one's native language is one's consciousness of those sounds. My guess is that my awareness holds some of the sounds of your example, because I believe that I can replicate some of them:
C: "cé"
Ç: "s" or the similar sound of a S.
Ë: É a vowel with big pronunciation.
Nj: I do not know how to pronounce it, the sound of these consonants are not in my mind when they are together!
Zh: Like "ch"

Im not sure if this is a fact but from our experience, it seems like we can imitate any sound and intonation of other languages with little effort. — TheMadMan

Some consonants that are not a common use in other vocabularies can be complex to pronounce. For example: "Nj" or Polish/Czech words and vocabulary. They are full of consonants and only few vowels. It is interesting because I guess we should to analyse each language and then conclude which one is more complex to replicate.

What do you mean? — TheMadMan

I mean: Albanian seems to do not have big issues in phonology because the sounds correspond with the words, vowels and consonants. But, is your language complex in other areas? Like gender endings, conjugation, vocabulary and its syntax, etc... I am Spanish. How difficult would learning Albanian be for me?
To be more specific, as an Albanian, you are used to the sounds of the words of your language since you were a kid. Would it be a struggle for a foreigner who is learning Albanian to replicate these sounds?

I agree with you, Frank. Learning from mimicking sounds when we are children is important because it helps us to learn one of the most difficult things: language.

Yet, this advantage can be a struggle too when you are learning another language with different sounds and pronunciations. This is when the difficulty starts. For example: In Spanish we pronounce the double "rr" in perro (dog) using a hard accent in the consonant, like if we say arrrrrrrrrre you ok this morning?
When you are used to specific sounds, it can be a struggle when you switch to another language, but the main paradox of this topic is the fact that we usually learn these "rules" unconsciously!

As an Albanian we have zero pronunciation problems since how we write a word is 100% the same as you say it.
The question "how do you spell it" doesn't exist. — TheMadMan

Interesting!

But, do you have any issue or struggle related to grammar or syntax? It seems that spelling is not so important in Albanian, but what about the other uses in your vocabulary?

People who can do that are people who have learned English from exposure mainly instead of rules of grammar. — TheMadMan

Yes, I agree. But, despite they would have skills in detecting vowels and consonants, maybe they would have grammatical mistakes. Here we are to find an equilibrium when we learn a language. Well, it depends in the language too.

Baden, thank you for your answer. I am aware that you have knowledge of linguistics, so I appreciate your opinion.

I like what you posted: "it is know-how not know-that", and yes, we have to look at each case or student. I don't want to consider the pronunciation as a "problem" but a struggle or even frustration. When I was in high school, I had to read in class paragraphs about different topics in English. I remember that one of those paragraphs started with the following word: "schedule". I didn't even know how to start reading it because the "sche" was not in my consciousness. One of the girls in the class said (that she ended up studying linguists later on) said that I had "phonemic deafness" and that's why it was impossible to me to pronounce "schedule" due to the lack of finding the sound of the consonants in my awareness.

Hello Hallucinogen!

Interesting OP, and I have already seen that some other users commented on mythology. This is what came to my mind firstly. Nevertheless, I think we cannot consider mythology or polytheism as religious diversity. Yes, they do have different deities representing their beliefs, but with a common "root" and excluding the rest of the groups who were different from them.

What I know as a school with religious diversity is the Visigothic Kingdom of Toledo in Spain.
Its many works of art and architecture are the product of three major religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It was called "La Convivencia", It claims that in the different Moorish Iberian kingdoms, the Muslims, Christians and Jews lived in relative peace.

Convivencia: "living together"

The first time I listened to it, I just called it "jazz" like anyone else I guess. Because I am not so familiar with technical words and I am event an expert on jazz. But, somehow, the first time you listen to the album, you feel is something different and you like it and enjoy it. To be honest, I discovered that the album is considered as "nu" jazz and "acid" jazz because of Wikipedia. :joke:

I happy to know you liked it. Cheers!

Glad to hear that cannabis helped your mother! Wonderful. I love hearing the stories of people helped by it. The more we look, the more we seem to find concerning cannabis. — 0 thru 9

Exactly. This is the main point we should approach. Show the sceptics the positive effects of Cannabis when they are treated for medical purposes. It has been proven that it can help people out, but a lot of bureaucracy from the state considers its use illegal and even clinical investigation. Crazy!

The big paradox here is the fact that maintaining marijuana as illegal doesn't remove the percentage of criminality or drug dependence. To be honest, I do not see the clue of maintaining this plant in the darkness of criminal organisations.

Physically, it reduces pain and inflammation from exercise. Someone trying to take the CBD flowers away from me would be like trying to take a bone away from a hungry dog lol. — 0 thru 9

Sorry for delaying my response to your post! My bad! Yesterday, I was very busy...

Anyway, Anyway, I agree with you in the fact that CBD can help to reduce pain. We were debating on psychological issues, but I forgot to mention the relevance of reducing the pain in both bones and muscles. I have met a lot of people who smoked weed to reduce insufferable pain.

When you go to hospital, most of the doctors prescribe you some pills and stuff with the aim to reduce the pain. Yet, those medications tend to be insufficient with the pass of months and years. For example: I remember that my mother always suffered a big pain in her back. In the first chance, they prescribed her pills and chemical stuff, but she ended up taking Cannabis sativa pills and everything went better off.

Another hypocrisy from the part of the "system", they do not prescribe marijuana natural pills or tabs, but they recommend to take pills and chemical products that destroy your liver!

Rather than debating on the existence of time travel, we already had a discussion regarding the paradox if time travel would exist after all.
If you are interested, here is the thread: Time Travel Paradoxes

Poetry.

Poem of the Deep Song, Gypsy Ballads by Federico García Lorca.

Sun The First. Maria Nefeli. Orientations by Odysseas Elytis.

Was that the biggest dose or milligrams that they had for sale? And I’m curious if it had both CBD and THC. Anyway, glad that it was relaxing! — 0 thru 9

Yes, I think it is the biggest dose. Just 320 milligrams. It does not contain THC, only CBD. I agree with you that maybe the point of the manufacturer was not provoking hallucinations, but reducing anxiety. I think it does make people more relaxed, but the Passiflora is an important component in these gummies as well.

I took another one in the morning, and I feel very good. Not stressed or anxious. I feel chilled like relaxed on a couch reading a book. I have never smoked weed, but I guess the feeling is similar but with more notorious effects.

I bought it at my local pharmacy. They said it is a "new natural" remedy for anxiety. It is true that Passiflora is a good choice to mixing up with Cannabis Sativa. Yet, it doesn't cause effects of hallucinations or borderline. When you ingest one of these gummies you feel relaxed and "chill" but it is not a big deal I guess. I took two gummies today and it was okay, but I am anticipating that, sooner or later, I will need more doses because they just work as a supplement. They do not have the real power that they should usually have.

:up:

The effects of the gummy faded away quicker than I expected. I needed to take another one, and I feel relaxed and calm again. I think the reasonable portion is around 2 or 3 gummies per day, because one seems to be insufficient! :chin:

Hello friend,

I decided to buy the tabs of Cannabis today. We talked about this some days ago or maybe weeks! Anyway, it is a worthy acquisition. For just 7.95 €, there are rational amount of tabs/gummies.
On the other hand, these gummies are made of "Cannabis Sativa oil" and Passiflora. It is a pure natural composition. It hasn't even sugar on it. You can take 2 - 4 gummies per day. It says that it also works as a dietary supplement.

I just took one gummy. I feel calm and relaxed. It is okay to start with a low quantity at the beginning. Well, I think it was a good purchase and I am happy now. Just another component to all the pills I take in my daytime.

Cheers. :party: