On the other hand true depression is a serious and debilitating illness and probably requires treatment and the right support. — Tom Storm

Can that treatment be found in philosophical writings or literature? Is there a possibility to understand depression at all? Because I feel that depression is very connected to existentialism and the suffering of why life is often incomprehensible. This is the way I see it, but I can be perfectly wrong.

I think you misunderstood me. I don't want to find out a diagnosis of depression, but what are the philosophical inputs on this matter. As well as philosophers debating about the origin of the ideas (for example), why not get a philosophical approach to depression?

I think your conclusion here isn't sound. You empathize with people suffering, but not with people who are happy. Why does the one type of person deserve empathy more than the other? And, it is only by choosing this one type to empathize with, that you reach the conclusion that people tend to face dramatic situations rather than happy ones.

Why will you not empathize with people who are happy? Would this make you feel bad (jealous perhaps), because these people are better off than you, truly happy, and you would only be feeling that happiness through empathy? To see others happy, when I am not happy, seems to emphasize my unhappiness, so I direct my attention toward the miserable. Misery loves company. Would empathizing with those who are suffering somehow make you feel good, because they are worse off than you, truly suffering while you only feel that suffering through empathy? If this is the case, then this is not true empathy. True empathy allows you to feel what the other feels. Therefore you ought to see no reason not to empathize with those who are happy. Why not share in that joy? — Metaphysician Undercover

I see your point.

But let me explain that it is quite difficult to have motivation for (let's say) participating in the joy and happiness of others. I don't think this is a matter of envy or jealousy. It is just that a person under the spectrum of pessimism is hard to find joy beyond the way he sees the world. I believe we should take your point the other way around. Don't you believe that happy people should be the ones who have to empathise with the rest? We are talking about putting some kind of responsibility on someone's shoulders. For this reason, I hardly see that a depressed person must embrace the happiness of others. Keep in mind that seeing the world in such a way is just a different perspective. I don't want to have anything against it. But I would not say it is better to wonder and be concerned about the misery of the world. It seems that according to some, the world is also full of beautiful things. Thus, they see the glass half full. But it is important to understand that others can't bear how incomprehensible life actually is. For one reason or another, there are always more reasons to be sad than happy.

What is the definition of "meaning" for you? When I use it in the context of "the meaning of suffering" or "the meaninglessness of the universe", I am referring to a conscious-independent purpose or value. — Showmee

I am referring to value. I don’t think a purpose is suitable here, but it is true that some acts and decisions are often taken because of a purpose. This is true. But I want to go a bit further: let’s say that acting accordingly has good consequences, while being a person with malicious thoughts can make you struggle. This is very basic, but it is where we should start. Now, if I thought that exceeding some limits was actually plausible to get some results, why do I end up regretting it? This is shown in ‘Crime and Punishment,’ but with the writing talent of Dostoevsky.

but to ask what the "fundamental" meaning of these things is in the aforementioned sense, I suppose, is meaningless (in a semantic sense). Asking why children suffer from war is the same as asking, say, why it is raining or not raining right now—if by "why" you are not referring to a physical or psychological process or causation, but rather to a metaphysical purpose. — Showmee

I am referring to a metaphysical purpose.


The question is not whether it is pouring or not. The question is not why children die. Everything goes beyond all of that. I don’t understand how Cosmos works, and I don’t really believe in God. But, for reasons that I would like to know, I am sitting here talking with you on a forum while a child is starving in the Gaza Strip. Why does this happen to the child and not me? I think it is a serious thing to approach. On this matter, I am not very fond of defending predeterminism. I can’t buy that some suffer and live miserable lives while others have fun just because the dice were thrown to the air and the numbers decided the will of different children. For this reason, I think it is a good exercise to do an act of empathy with them [the people who suffer]. But exactly here is when the paths crossed. If they suffer because they were born in a place where you can’t live (objective suffering) and I suffer because I realise what the human condition is (subjective suffering), then people tend to face dramatic situations rather than happy ones. Accepting that this is the case, I believe it is plausible to wonder why children die rather than why it is raining. The first is a pattern intrinsically human; the second is just trifling.

Moreover, the answer would vary depending on one’s metaphysical stance. — Showmee

Yes, I agree.

Hey, good post. You are right that is important to first identify what exactly the problem is.

Insomnia/hypersomnia daily.
Feeling of worthless, inappropriate and low self-esteem.
Recurrent thought of death or suicide — Showmee

Those three patterns are the main ones. I believe that suicidal thoughts and insomnia have been by my side for a long time. Before starting to read Dostoevsky, I remember that Mishima was also an important author to understand and approach the concept of death. Specifically speaking, it is worth quoting his following quote: "The Japanese have always been a people with a severe awareness of death. But the Japanese concept of death is pure and clear, and in that sense it is different from death as something disgusting and terrible as it is perceived by Westerners."

But I failed trying to embrace the Japanese way of life and death. I can't see 'heroic' or 'pure' ways to live, so I can't see death in the same way. Furthermore, I believe that dying can be the solution to many problems caused by my circumstances. But, reflecting on it deeply, I still believe that this thought is selfish. For this reason, Western existentialism and Dostoevsky's literature helped me to understand that life is a continuous struggle, that familiar problems exist and children die. I can't do anything but face it and accept that life is the way it is represented in The Brothers Karamazov or Stepanchikovo.

Social and environmental factors encompass the influence of one’s surroundings, such as adverse childhood experiences, chronic stress (e.g., from work), and low socioeconomic status. Personal history—such as a specific traumatic or tragic event—also plays a role. — Showmee

Exactly. But this makes me wonder: who the hell has never experienced tragic experiences or traumatic events?

Dostoevsky’s recurring themes of human misery, I think it is misguided to focus exclusively on this aspect. One could just as easily find numerous counterexamples. What often appears to be timeless human suffering is, in many cases, the result of specific historical and political conditions. — Showmee

I can't disagree with that point, but I think it is important to emphasise that Dostoevsky went beyond political factors. The human condition tends to be miserable. Wishing the death of a father (The Brothers Karamazov) or stealing your daughter's money because you are a gambler. People do this, and after that, the following can happen: regretting or not caring. I go for the first option, and I explain to you why: for unknown reasons, people tend to act viciously, and when they understand the moral consequences of their acts, it is too late. Now that the problem has happened, what can we do? If I wasn't ethical in the first place, why am I suffering from my consequences now?

Sartre, for instance, saw the inherent meaninglessness of the world as the foundation for human freedom and agency. Camus, on the other hand, insisted that the beauty and essence of life lie in the absurd revolt—our rational craving for meaning set against the irrational silence of the universe. — Showmee

Yes, but I believe that French existentialist writers are a bit naive in their views. I can't say that children dying in Gaza or starving in a random cold oblast is inherent meaninglessness for the sake of freedom. It might help me to find freedom for myself. But, again, what still happens to those children? The point here is that, according to the way I see things, it would be selfish to act pretending that human misery is meaninglessness. At least, it is a cause to make me feel depressed.

In any case, I wish you strength and improvement in your journey. — Showmee

Thanks. It was a productive and interesting exchange. Sorry if my grammar and expressions are not very accurate. I am not a native speaker.

Yes, I read some works on Stoicism or by stoic authors. They are not my cup of tea, sorry. It is interesting how they approach life and the circumstances, but I ended up not "buying" their motto. Furthermore, I hardly recall if they apply their views to familiar problems. I believe they belong to the classics, and it is not comparable with modern authors on the same topic.

The example of Hercules is perfect for what I think. I don't want to become a superman. I just want to know whether I should bear all uncomfortable circumstances or not. I don't want to find a way of escaping through luxuries either. When an ethical dilemma pops up, we have to be ready to act. The big issue here is if I really act accordingly. If not, I am at risk of being depressed. This is incomprehensible, but I get why existentialism fits with my way of viewing the world.

I come from the opposite end of the spectrum and I believe that it is childhood and what happens in childhood that moulds the adult. Not that these things are set in stone. — Malcolm Parry

Good point. This is why I stated that one of the themes where Dostoevsky approaches depression is the suffering of children. I don't know if you read 'The Eternal Houseband', but it is actually a great novel. One of the characters is a child, and she suffers from having an agitated childhood with a dead mother and unknown father. Everything happens here, at this age. It is cruel but realistic at the same time; because some writers only show childhood as if it were a fairy tale. But the reality could be more different.

My wife and child work in Mental health jobs and see the damage done by childhood. It isn't just horrendous stories but just parents being not very good. — Malcolm Parry

Understood. It is not being too bizarre but the absence of parents can make children depressed too.

What is it about yourself you feel bad about? Don't answer if you don't want to. — Malcolm Parry

I feel selfish because I believe that I don't appreciate my life enough. I complained and behaved childishly in many different ways. For example: destiny and circumstances are often the things that make me feel depressed. I always wonder, "Why does this happen to me?" Or "Why did I make this decision?" etc. While I stick the TV on, and I watch a lot of children dying in Gaza or starving in a random village in Africa. Then I say to myself, What do you complain about? Look how thousands and thousands of citizens actually live! And then, reflecting on that makes me a bit depressed because although my life is "better" than theirs, I believe my life is not always satisfactory.

These kind of dilemmas are found in Dostoevsky. Humiliated and Injured comes to my mind.

First of all, thanks for bringing the psychology approach to this discussion. I completely missed it, although I am aware that it is very important. I went to the psychologist a few times in my life, but the results were not satisfactory. We didn't talk about the philosophy of mind, neither moral nor ethical dilemmas. I guess this is not what psychologists are up to. But I ended up bored in the sessions, and I decided to not come back ever again and try to find out other ways to understand depression. As I said, I think that some authors are worth reading because they explore human behaviour. Nonetheless, this didn't heal my depression, and I still needed antidepressants to feel better with myself.

It is true that Sigmund Freud is an important author to consider in terms of understanding the mind. But I want to go beyond biological matters. My seek is more focused on human behaviour and personal circumstances which lead us to an incomprehensible suffering.

That's why I believe Dostoevsky was very good expressing the sentimental nature of humans.

I was diagnosed with depression two weeks ago, and the doctor gave me antidepressants. I feel better now, but the side effects are uncomfortable -- dry mouth and headaches. Well, the doctor said that this specific antidepressant (it is called 'Sertralina') is not really addictive, and I would leave it easily in the future.

Maybe this will give you some insight to the early days of TPF. — Sir2u

I felt nostalgia reading the thread even though I wasn't a member back then.

But never attempted it. Have you? — Amity

Yes! I attempted writing haibun on more than one occasion. Yet it has been a while since I wrote the last one. It is hard to write to me because I can't figure out when I should stop or not. Remember that a haibun needs to end with a haiku. So, in most cases, it was difficult for me to discern whether the prose needed to be longer or shorter. Now that you mention it, I can't remember why I stopped writing haibun because it is a good way to practise our creativity skills!

I wonder if that could be incorporated into TPF 'philosophy writings' or 'short stories'?
What do you think? — Amity

Yes, definitely. I think it could be incorporated into 'short stories'. Like a different way of participating in the challenge/competition/activity, etcetera... or we may do an activity only focusing on haibun but this could be a bit extreme. :chin:

Hello Amity. How is it going? :smile:

In the traditional sense, correct.
Sometimes, people (even philosophers) love a poetic idea, like 'haiku' and run with it. Across the globe.

The book mentioned in the OP is one such enterprise. Creativity flows. — Amity

I think I might be precise. Japanese haiku poets no longer follow the traditional structure. Nonetheless, I still believe that it is very important to give a try at understanding Japanese aesthetics and their way of thinking. They are more ambiguous than us (the Western people), and they are also influenced by a culture where silence and non-emotional expressions are very relevant.

I think one of the usual mistakes I made writing haikus is precisely trying to be creative. The key of the haiku is letting ourselves be embraced by nature. :flower: :smile:

javi2541997 - how is haiku progressing where you're at? — Amity

Very well! We (my friends and I) are publishing haikus in an online magazine. It is very fun, although some haikus might not be very good enough haha. On the other hand, we also focus on commenting and sharing ideas about old known haikus by Santoka, Kobayashi, Buson, and Shiki. This is very interesting, and I am learning a lot, but I have to admit that I still have a lot of things to learn. I met folks who have written haiku since 2000 or 2002. Crazy! Imagine writing haikus for more than twenty years!

The following thread is very awesome, but it is only available in Spanish (sorry): :pray:

Kire.

Yes! The game didn't even begin yet. Keep an eye out for Entry 001. — Kizzy

Kizzy, where is the Entry 001? Should we keep waiting and have more patience?

Yes! The game didn't even begin yet. Keep an eye out for Entry 001. — Kizzy

I'm hooked.

The times, or levels, or versions of TPF method of entry or order of ops is something I didn't consider, at first. — Kizzy

Yeah, doesn't matter, Kizzy. You started this thread with good manners, and it is a great and interesting OP. I thought you should know that TPF worked differently back in the day.

Please, don't worry! I can tell you what it is, what I have about you from what I have gathered from you! — Kizzy

Haha. I know, I know, dear friend. I was joking. It is very intriguing that some can have an opinion on me in that way. I mean, thanks to your notes or files, I realised that I exist for someone. Dude, thank you so much. I don't know if it is really related, but I remember that the last summer we talked to each other through private messages, and it was fun. It might be related to your files or maybe not... time will tell us.

But first, I think and find the mention of John Locke to be of relevance, especially considering you, your mind state, and status in that time, 2021 I suppose, when and where you emerged onto the scene. — Kizzy

I agree. Good point. But I have changed a lot since then. I perfectly remember why I started my first OP. By that time, I was very interested in British empiricism. It has been fun since then, and I met awesome people here. Yet it is true that I also had negative experiences with a few users. But nothing that had torn me apart!

Javi, I will say, the note I have is kind of recent...and in it mentions user, that I have left off the list, karl stone. — Kizzy

Nice! This is like playing Cluedo. Is there a further clue to consider?

Kizzy... Kizzy... my mate you are doing spooky stuff.

Jokes aside.

First, not all of us sent an email to Jamal to join TPF. I joined this site in 2021, and by that time, you didn't need an 'invitation' to join. You just create a user and then sign up. The invitation guideline came after, I guess, one year later. So, there are a large number of users who never sent an email to Jamal. This has led to recent users, I guess.

I feel pleased that I appear in your famous files or notes. Now, I am also a bit scared. I only hope that you haven't targeted me for unknown reasons, or you are planning to threaten me because you have sensitive information about me. No, I don't think so. You are not that kind of person. But I am not going to lie: I feel now a bit intrigued. What might Kizzy have about me? :chin:

My very first layer of my presence here is not very interesting, and it is plagued by spelling errors:



This is a great "vault" as you stated. Looking forward for revealing more secrets. :wink:

So presumably if one deletes a conversation, it is deleted for oneself, and not for the other participants? — Banno

Presumably, yes. But there is another important fact, and he wasn't the one who started the private message. Probably, if the member who started and invited the rest deletes it, it affects all. Otherwise, the thread of the private message remains. Well, this is a conjecture. I don't really know, but it is interesting to talk about the tips of TPF.

Not sure why - "@I Like Sushi" and "@T Clark" do not come up, — Banno

I Like Sushi comes up easily. Try to search him using only the words 'Like' or 'Sushi' and his name pops up.

My theory that @T Clark doesn't come up is that many members whose names include 'Clark'. If I type 'Clark', they appear before Clarky since the search feature only reveals results that begin with 'C' or 'Clark', whereas our friend's user name begins with T.

On the other hand, it is interesting to know that @J is unsearchable. I didn't know that.

Good morning javi. I don't mean to be overly pedantic, but I think it's important to note that the op is clearly and specifically concerned with "discussing philosophical ideas in Private Messages". — Metaphysician Undercover

Good afternoon MU. Yes, I understand what this thread is about, and I still believe that the replies this OP received from the rest of the members are very insightful. Yes, it is true that we are not debating about the concept of metaphysics or epistemology. These are 'real' topics of philosophy. But, sometimes, it is nice to get to know each other a little better. These kinds of threads can help us to do so. I think discussing philosophical ideas in private messages is great because I think you share ideas with a member you have in high esteem or you trust in him.

Exactly. So the response to such a question is abuse? I don't get it. If the thread were in the Lounge, would that make it OK to be sarcastic and disrespectful? (Perhaps so; I never visit the Lounge.) — J

I will be honest: when I joined the forum, I believed that whenever a thread was put in the lounge, it was like a punishment. Nonetheless, later I learnt that the lounge can also hold interesting discussions, but the topic doesn't especially address philosophy, and that's why it ends there. I recommend you visit it. You will not get disappointed. :wink:

I believe the point of this thread is not to be philosophical but to ask us if we use private messages to interact privately with other members.

I think it is interesting to read the replies from the other mates. Some use private messages to talk with people they consider closer to interact with; others use it to gossip, as Benkei stated. It is comprehensible that the main point of a forum is to interact with the rest widely. But this should not create boundaries for the interactions. Talking with someone privately through PM is another way of using TPF.

I mainly used private messages to talk with @Arcane Sandwich in our native language. Also, I interact with @T Clark a lot through PM when he feels I am angry. Because there are personal or emotional stuff that need to be treated more privately. I don't know if this thread ought to be in the lounge, but it is quite interesting to see that folks built personal relationships with some members that they trust in.

Do you find yourself using PMs for more intricate discussions? — Banno

It is not only for doing philosophy, but I use private messages to show myself with more freedom. Before @Arcane Sandwich was banned, we had deep conversations in Spanish using private messages. This is the way we became friends, and we still have contact through email. Since he is the philosopher and not me, I am like his student, and we talk of different topics, but I was learning about 'Divine Simplicity' lately thanks to him.

Overall, I believe private messages are used with members you have a certain level of confidence in.

The Transylvanian Trilogy: Volume I. They were counted. by Miklós Bánffy.

Shocking! That's very sad news. It feels like yesterday when she gave the feedback on my stories in the 'short story competition.'

Rest in peace, Vera! Thanks for everything.

And thanks @Amity for letting us know.

After how the tables have turned since January, he feels more entitled than ever to claim that the whole of Ukraine is Russian. If you have an old man in the White House saying similar statements like "the Gulf of Mexico is now the Gulf of America" or threatening Denmark to make Greenland part of the USA. Well, it is not strange that Putin would follow a similar tune.

Cărtărescu's Blinding trilogy.

Karl Stone — Hanover

Understandable. I think we all expected this sorrowful end. Don't you?

Honestly, I believe that @karl stone was like a preacher in the desert. His ideas are good and revolutionary, but I think he is sending the message to the incorrect audience. If I were him, I would have already started a campaign. But, for unclear reasons, he decided to share his ideas with us. The first time is nice, but the rest can be unbearable, and I guess this is what caused the banning of @karl stone. Whenever we ignored (or even criticised) his 'Magma Forever' theory, he took it personally.

Instead of redeeming himself, he kept the same attitude. Now, I would like to ask @karl stone: Who is the shepherd and who is the lamb? This can answer many questions. He either felt like the shepherd or the lamb.

Descanse en Paz. A really picturesque member.

Inquisiciones by Jorge Luis Borges.

I don't understand the chart, and the tulip seems to be lagging. I would like to recommend you to use ChatGPT as a prompt too. It will plummet sooner or later, as well as tulips back in the 17th century.

Do you have political aspirations, at this stage in your life? — kazan

No, not really; I lost confidence in politics because it always ended up disappointing me. It is difficult to keep an idea for years in this very volatile world. My motto is 'live and let live'. Don't treat people badly.

But politics is a game played by snakes. I am already happy if I am a good citizen, neighbour or friend. We have to be better than the people who are in power, the ones who pull the strings.

Australian smile.

When it comes to friends and family, getting them to listen is more important than understanding. If they are listening, they can understand within 1 minute or 50 years. There is no such thing as a conversation anyone would understand without listening. — Cobra

This is what I was about to post. It is not possible to understand someone without the act of listening carefully. Well, language also plays an important factor. Imagine two persons listening to each other, but they don't share a common language. Here, the act of understanding would be in trouble.

Who cares who rules, it's how they rule and the outcomes. — kazan

I agree Kazan, good point.

Don't you ever think of getting involved in Australian politics actively? I believe you and @Banno would be good Leaders of the House.

You don’t understand the move because you wouldn’t do this. — Tom Storm

Exactly.

Members cannot delete their own posts. They can edit them, so they can replace the entire text of a post with a single character, which is what happened in this case. — Jamal

Yes, yes. I know. We are only able to edit the posts, not to erase them. The same happens to discussions. I remember asking fdrake to erase a thread I started because I wasn't able to do it by myself.

I believe he couldn't have erased more than 9K posts, but as pointed out, he may have had a new view on everything, and then puff, vanished into thin air.

:up:

I am surprised it is allowed; — unenlightened

Me too. I thought the site owned our posts and threads and they couldn't be deleted.

Our past ideas can be embarrassing, no doubt. But not forgetting (or erasing in this case) the past can help us to understand how we are in the present and how we would look like to be in the future. I have changed during these four years in the forum. But I don't regret any of my 6,291 posts. Each post represents a footprint of my existence here. From now on, how can a new member ever know that tim wood existed here? :sad:

If they would like to join again, they can send an email to infoatthephilosophyforumdotcom. — Jamal

But everything he posted with his old user profile is now permanently deleted, right?

Exactly.

The solution is to not post for a period of time and have a break from the Internet or the forum. According to the explanation of events by , he started to self-erase. I believe he did it in a state of anger, and his emotions were out of control. Deleting the posts is an extreme option, indeed. Imagine everything you posted for years vanishing like the smoke in the air.

Forgive me, but I think I will avoid Kundera. — jgill

Give him a try. You will not get disappointed. Trust me, jgill. :wink:

I want to believe there is a place to return, but whether I could be capable of approaching it is what scares me the most.