It seems, at the very least, that poetic meaning is open — Moliere

:up: :100:

Poems are an artistic representation of ourselves through words. I enjoyed reading the poem of the picture of your OP. I interpret it as the beautiful essence of a normal day. Where everything happens as is used to be. Fortunately, there is nothing what can disturb our serene day.

Verses make different emotions on people. I am against all of those who are rigid towards interpreting a poem. There isn’t anyone clever than other in terms of experiencing poetry. I want share another poem with you:

[He] said:
“the sea used to come here”
And and [he] put more wood on the fire. Ozaki Hōsai.

This haiku poem gives me nostalgia because the author is missing something that is no longer with him: the sea.

has to truly resonate from within each individual and it has to start with empathy rather than rationality — Seeker

Understandable. But the example you provided is based on pure mechanism of human’s survival. The consume of meat is not meaningless. We literally need it because it has proteins and other compositions which help us to keep a healthy lifestyle.
Empathy is very complex to put in action. I don’t even have in mind any possible example. It is difficult because it is impossible to put us in somebody else's place.

when the authors of the Declaration of Independance wrote that "all men are created equal" they were talking about white men, not women nor black people — Matias

What you've written makes sense. I do think many of our country's founders were aware of the ambiguity and hypocrisy. — T Clark

Interesting :up: :sparkle:

You said:

That has nothing to do with the integrity of the press. Indeed, Trump is suing CNN because they frequently reported on his lies, particularly his Big Lie. — praxis

You mixed up integrity with the fact that CNN frequently reported Donald’s Trump Big Lie.

Should they be forced to do otherwise? — praxis

Yes. I still think media should be impartial, objective and avoid persuading people.

I did not say whether or not frequently reporting on Trump’s lies was a good thing. — praxis

Our debate started because you said I cannot prove with facts or arguments that media tend to manipulate us in order to get some benefits for some. Nevertheless, you defended that there are some media that act with integrity. Then, you put CNN reporting Donald Trump’s lies as an example.

You are using CNN as an example of integrity. OK, we can be agree here that they are trying to uncovering the lies of Trump. But… what about Fox News? They are always be a media support Donald Trump. So here is when the problem begins. Who is saying the truth? Who is acting with integrity? A trump supporter would say “CNN is lying to us” meanwhile you, that don’t like Donald Trump, say that CNN is good press because they are uncovering all Donald Trump’s shit.
Nevertheless, what are the real interests of doing so? Open the eyes of the American population or just to wreck his political influence?

UK PM Liz Truss joins first meeting of new ‘club of European nations’

Initially sceptical

Ms Truss’ decision to attend today came as something of a surprise when announced last week, as she was initially sceptical about the idea of an EPC.

She said in July that there were too many organisations in Europe and that existing bodies should instead be made more effective.

Her Foreign Secretary James Cleverly has also said more recently that the UK does not need“to be a member of more institutions in the European sphere”.

She is even more Eurosceptical than Boris Johnson.

The British government also reportedly asked that the name be changed to the ‘European Political Forum’ – possibly to avoid associations with the ‘European Community’, an earlier name of the EU – but other European governments appear to prefer the term ‘community’. :yikes:

They just use their influence. Being a powerful politician is intimidatory.

I shared with you an article about "Dreyfuss case" but I guess you didn't read it or didn't understand it because that article explains very well how powerful groups use press and journalists but I going to use another example and try to convince you.

The 1991 Gulf War and the following Iraq crisis is a perfect example. This conflict started because of the war between Iraq and Kuwait, right? Well it turned up everything in a more complex issue. Don't you remember the fallacy of "Iraq holds nuke weapons"? Why there was an interest in such lie?
The powerful members of NATO needed to use a fallacy, through journalists and newspapers, to the intervention in Iraq. "News World Order" was the title of another program in the series; it focused on the media's complicity in promoting the war, as well as Americans' reactions to the media coverage.

Years later in 2003:

Despite this lack of physical evidence, on 19th March 2003 President Bush announced the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom, informing the public that the Iraq Regime threatened peace with weapons of mass murder.
Of course, the US and its allies never found WMD’s. Speaking before the World Affairs Council in 2006, Bush stated that he “fully understood that the intelligence was wrong, and [he was] just as disappointed as everybody else" when U.S. troops failed to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq

Link and facts: Bush, The Media & Misinformation Surrounding the Iraq War

Dumb Christians read Jesus like a peace-and-love hippie. He was (is?) terrifying — Moses

:yikes:

Well it is always free upon the people to interpret the image or Jesus Christ. This prophet was always been a figure with a lot of controversial debates (some even doubt about his own existence).
What we should interpret or understand the figure of Jesus is subject of another thread indeed!

The cost of freedom is evil. — Agent Smith

:up: :sparkle:

I am not defaming "Breitbart" on a public forum (I don't even know who is he). What I intended to argue is the fact that news are a very powerful political lobby. They can help you to reach the top or destroy your career.
I understand that there could be transparent journalists but they don't tend to work in big media as CNN, NY Times, BBC, etc...

Shouldn’t news networks be allowed the freedom that you have? — praxis

Absolutely. But... are they really free? We the citizens end up receiving the "real" freedom thanks to their "independence"

With despair, true optimism begins: the optimism of the man who expects nothing, who knows he has no rights and nothing coming to him, who rejoices in counting on himself alone and in acting alone for the good of all — 180 Proof

:up: :100: :sparkle:

You would be surprised at the amount a good pimp will pay for clothes for his hoes. — Merkwurdichliebe

:up: :sparkle:

They invest in show their products in the storefront.

I sometimes remember things which in actuality happened at a different time, happened to different people, happened elsewhere, happened in a different way, or never happened at all. — Tom Storm

I experience the same sometimes. It is weird because I even have memories of people I don’t even met in my life but somehow they are allocated in my awareness. It is a strange feeling. Whenever I have nightmares, I experience the same… it appears places and people that I am not really sure if I ever been with them.

. You seem to be suggesting that a far-right party controls Breitbart. Who would that be exactly and how do they enforce their control? — praxis

Every political group needs to be heard by the population. It is not the same if I express myself in the streets rather than spread all my speech in news and media which catch up millions and millions of citizens. Every clever politician controls a newspaper or journalists to control all the citizens.
You asked "who" are they exactly and how they do it. It is very difficult to know because those powerful groups tend to act in the shadows or as a "ghost writers"

For example: Nazi Germany is well known as a good example of spreading propaganda about Hitler. But... Hitler himself was not the main responsible for these actions. It was Goebbles. This Nazi politician was "Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda"
Why he did that? Because he understood they only way of maintaining III Reich and going to war was manipulating the people. As much as we know it today.

I recommend you to read this: Dreyfus affair. One of the main examples of fake news and manipulation by the press and journalists.

Here is a link to a compass website:https://www.compassonline.org.uk/about/our-story/
I include it just so you can perhaps read the brief contents of the 'our story' first page. — universeness

Thanks for sharing it with me. Very interesting :up:

'what are your biggest priorities/concerns?' and 'What common ground can we occupy to help change things for the better?' I fully support this approach. — universeness

It seems they really care about people and not maintaining the status quo. I wish them the best. These are the public representatives we truly deserve. Someone who ask us how to make the things better. It looks like the citizenship can take more part in it.

A group called Compass in the UK is making some strong in-roads at the moment. Another group called momentum is also still doing very well. — universeness

So interesting! Are they capable to finish the bilateral system?

Spain doesn't have a wealthy elite? — frank

Not as other countries such as Japan or USA. Yes we have an elite but these are only bourgeois persons whose rents come from king's favours or Fraco's era.

Venezuela if you study its history was one that was closest to a serious attempt at establishing a socialist/humanist system. The initial moves were very good imo, but the attempts to consolidate were crushed by outside plutocratic forces. — universeness

I disagree. Venezuela never gave a real try to implement humanism among the society. It is absurd to always find guilts outside the country. Plutocratic forces is just a random speculation to just don't assume the fatalities of the State of Venezuela. Maduro and the rest of socialist commanders of Venezuela also play the card of "we are bad because of Spanish empire stigma". Well, I completely disagree... They got their independence 200 years ago. Two centuries is a lot to get rid from Spanish yoke.
In the other hand, why some plutocracies would be interested in Venezuela? Yes they have oil but it is managed by a state owned company...

Then, the people are left with what they currently have or any other alternative on offer. That's simply the reality of how human democratic politics must function. — universeness

Agree. But, paradoxically, socialist countries tend to be the less democratic possible. That's a fact we have to accept. Just look at China, Cuba, Angola, Venezuela, Belarus, etc... They are not democratic. The citizens of those countries cannot vote if they want socialism or not. Their dictators just imposed it.

if we are ever to rid ourselves of the horrific imbalances that the majority suffer, due to living under a plutocratic system. — universeness

It is true that those systems are not perfect and there is some imbalance. But please do not forget that at least you can vote to elect the next president in UK or USA. Not like China and Russia. Plutocracy is bad but is not so dangerous as living in a military dictatorship as North Korea for example.

I'm guessing the tax was meant for the rich, but the rich were able to shove it down hill to the middle class. That's not good. — frank

The line between middle class and rich is vanishing. It is difficult to distinguish a real rich person from a middle class worker. For example: I do not consider "rich" a person who owns 200.000 € in the bank. It is an amount of money you can earn working hard along your life

I know I sound as a neo liberal or capitalist cheerleader. But I am not even close. I am just sceptical about financial regimes around the globe and I still don't see socialism as a real solution to get resource-based economy or a redistribution of wealth. Most of socialist countries end up failing. Yes, I know capitalism is not the solution neither. But at least it is a system who (more or less) works in the Western world and some Asian countries as Japan or South Korea.

It sounds like your family is pretty well off? — frank

No, we are not. I promise we are a normal middle class family. I don't even understand why the fees increased that much in contrast to their income

Now I know a lot more, I am against the existence of political parties and believe that representation should be based on individual local independent candidates and not a political party. I can't now join a political party and be true to that viewpoint. — universeness

Good point :up: It is difficult to change the political rules and system because as how it works it feeds a lot of people's interests.

Words are limited to express how much I utterly disagree with your above quote. — universeness

I respect your thoughts. Nevertheless, I don't know a financial system which actually works apart from capitalism. :chin:

Why the heavy emphasis on reducing debt? — frank

Because the European Comission is worried about the high debt of Spain. Between 2011 and 2018 a conservative government promoted spending cuts policies, reduce taxes on incomes and collecting as much as possible from indirect taxation. This policy was welcomed by European countries as Austria and other European commissioners.
But since the new government is ruling the country they are doing exactly the opposite. They have increased many points the income taxes because the president and treasury minister think that the previous measures only benefit the richest citizens. I am not agree at all. For example: My parents paid around 28 % or 30 % of their income in taxes five or six years ago. But now the percentage increased to 43 % because it is time to be solidary with the rest of the citizens. I don't consider my family as "rich"as to pay such amount of taxes. I see it unfair.

Maybe Spain is afraid that would chase off jobs producers? — frank

No at all because those taxes are paid ofently. It is worse the capital earning tax because those entrepreneurs have to pay 23 or 25 % of their revenue in taxes each year...

hitler, — Deus

Hitler was never a corrupted politician. The III Reich characterises for being a devil but clean dictatorship.

Is this driven by Brussels? — frank

No. Brussels even recommends to Spain to try to reduce the debt with "inderect" taxes such as "Value-added tax" and not by taxing income or capital earnings.

Before your generation ends, I hope your fellow humans provide you with some positive surprises as good examples of what humans can do to make improvements on how they live. — universeness

Nah, I am pretty sceptical on such scenario :mask:

is true, then that is not socialism. — universeness

Nobody even tries to put it into practice. Most of these debates end up in doctrines or theories at universities of political science. Everything we both are debating is good and worthy to our lives. But all of these mechanisms need to be practical and the authorities responsible for making this "happen" tend to not do anything to pursue it.
It is so frustrating, doesn't it? There are a lot of people trying to improve the world but the politicians do not care. This is why I don't want to be a public representative.

I am also convinced that the capitalist 'money trick' imposes great harm on our species and on our planet, and it is a clear and present danger that must be effectively dealt with for the sake of all future generations. — universeness

Believe it or not, it is the better possible system. The different generations have tried different systems of organisations along the centuries and most of them end up failing except capitalism. It is true it is a flawed system but it is not that bad because most of the people tend to win under it.

If you control the press then it’s no longer free though, right? — praxis

Exactly and both political parties are guilty.

It already serves the system willingly. — Merkwurdichliebe

:up: :sparkle:

So the press should be firmly regulated by the government? — praxis

The press should be impartial and express the news objectively.

Trump sues CNN for saying mean things about him. — praxis

Trump claims in his lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, that CNN had used its considerable influence as a leading news organization to defeat him politically.

To be honest, I am in Trump's side. Big press and social media tend to use their high influence to destroy your image or political career. This happens everywhere.

Now, instead of paper money and coin for your labour, you get numbers in your bank account. — universeness

But that's only how the transfer of money has changed in the last decades. I still see it as a "value" of my job each month whenever I accomplish it.

only the country closest to achieving a humanist/socialist political system will be the first to switch to something akin to a resource-based economy, or at least a much fairer system than we have now. — universeness

Hmmm. I don't think so. I live under a socialist country and I don't see any kind of intentions of changing all the mechanism. Rather than trying to develop a resource-based economy, they are getting rich doing literally the opposite.
To be honest, your arguments of resource-based economy could only be applied to small countries with reasonable citizens. It is impossible to implement this in big chaotic countries like India or Mexico. They depend a lot on monetary values and their governors are always obsessed with "buying" reserve currencies like American dollar or Euro. It is a very complex situation which seems to be irretrievable

Are taxes abusively high where you are? — frank

Yes. They are so abusively high. Our socialist government is destroying the middle class.

I am opposed to abusive taxation in both income and capital gains. I just want to justify that we can live formidably with less fees of taxation

The idea of 'Your office' and Your workers,' and 'You pay them,' is also not chiselled in stone. — universeness

Well, that's true the space of working completely changed since Covid pandemic but I think offices are still important and effective.

I am sure you agree that technology is changing the means of production, distribution and exchange, in many significant ways and I do not see any benefit to maintaining the status quo. — universeness

Agreed. Technology has changed all of those factors of production. Nevertheless, I still cannot see "production, distribution and exchange" as "priceless". To be honest, if we don't put some value on them, the people would waste the mechanism. Whenever I read your arguments I imagine you as a good reasonable person who acts with common sense. But, sadly, not everyone understands how complex is to redistribute all the chains of the "status quo". I see that many people would confuse resource-based economy with "free" because it doesn't have monetary value.

I agree with how vital personal freedom is and that all individuals must be as free to do what they want as is possible within the restriction of the existence of 'other people' who also want to be free to do what they want. That's the biggest issue. Your freedom cannot prevent or subjugate another's. — universeness

To be honest, seeing these difficult times (Ukraine war, inflation, covid, etc...) I prefer to choose security rather than freedom. If this act would reduce my "freedom" it is ok I will not get mad because I am scary. I am perceiving that most of the people do not respect the rules or public order. Whenever a police officer ask to "please don't disturb the people in the streets" those savages say "it is Fascism we deserve more freedom"
It is a shame. We live in an era where the youngest generation doesn't know what is the freedom and how to respect it

I told you, no more Japanese reading. Except for those cool porno comics. — T Clark

:lol: ! I promise those are the last books of Japanese literature in my room. I will read other types of literature in the coming months.

So, do you think we could get rid of all national currencies and just exchange goods and services using numbers/credits? — universeness

National currencies are also tools for pursuing safety. One nation is capable to exchange goods and services using credits because their credibility allows them to do so. For example: Japan; UK; Eurozone; USA, etc... Have the so called reserve currency. Economists debate whether a single reserve currency will always dominate the global economy. Many have recently argued that one currency will almost always dominate due to network externalities, especially in the field of invoicing trade and denominating foreign debt securities, meaning that there are strong incentives to conform to the choice that dominates the marketplace.

How far is it from there to effectively, no money. In other words, a resource-based economy. — universeness

I understand. Nevertheless, the interactions are very complex to reach a resourced-based economy. If we implement this doctrine how would you pay to your workers? (for example). Imagine you have 5 workers in your office and you pay them 1.000 € per month because you consider it sufficient in terms of hours of work, tasks, benefits, bonuses, etc... But how can you measure all of these factors with resource-based economy? You will always need a basic number or digit to do it.

and then get rid of money and switch to something like a resource-based economy — universeness

I think it could not be possible. It is interesting your point but if we get rid of money or monetary terms, the things themselves would lose their real value. For example: you pay X number of euros in a new car because the object actually deserves it.
Resource-based economy is a good intention indeed and I respect it. But it is impossible to avoid money exchange.
It is interesting to see that we always put a price on everything, right?

Successful economy? That’s capitalism.
Failed economy? Socialism. — Xtrix

The GDP of Japan and South Korea holds the 8 % GDP of the entire world. Meanwhile Cuba only 0.12 %. You will not imagine who are the capitalists in the equation.

you’re not involved — Xtrix

It is my thread not yours. @frank can argue whatever he wants. At least he sees the amazing developments of China. Something you seem not to understand what is the cause yet.

Adjusting income tax rates does not completely remediate the problem. Capital earners pay nearly half of what top income earners pay. It is these capital earners who most distort our economic and political systems. As a result of this tax schema, the share of the economic pie the wealthy command is metastasizing. We need to revisit how we tax capital, too

Your obsessed with the capital, Jesus! You are delusional if you think we solve everything taxing the damn capital. Leave the capital earners alone!

The laffer curve. Lol. Do people still take that nonsense seriously? — Xtrix

Imagine calling “nonsense” to a scientific research which takes years to develop it.