Ditto. I am not entitled to criticise him because I am aware of his development regarding space and other engineering stuff, but he reminds me of toddlers when he starts to rant about politicians or whoever decides to delete their 'X' account. I recall when the Brazilian Supreme Court banned X in Brazil, and he began to harshly condemn and rave against Brazilian judges.
Crazy on the one hand, but cringe, embarrassing, and pathetic on the other.

I don't know the context of why he said that, but I bet it is due to something related to our low contribution to NATO; and yet we have been increasing the spending in the past years because of the Ukraine crisis. I still think that is a waste of money, time, and resources. I don't understand the point of contributing to a useless army organisation that split the world in half, and some members even threaten others. Now Trump is threatening Denmark (a founder member of the treaty!) on the Greenland issue.

Well, he will indeed increase the tariffs on our products anyway xD :lol: . It doesn't matter if it is 10% or 100%.

Yeah, I agree. But I remember folks (who now voted for Trump) were always ranting on Biden's gaffes and bloopers; even Democrats threw out Biden for that reason. But it is hard to distinguish when they are ignorant about the world or just senile.

Spain is very low...

Are they a BRICS nation?

Spain, a BRICS nation... You will figure out.

:rofl: :rofl:

I am fond of the poor geopolitical knowledge of some Americans. It is funny. These folks changed one old man for another. Imagine Republicans reaction if Biden would say things like that.

Dead Souls by Nikolai Gogol.

We are reading the same author at the same time. It is interesting how fate works. Isn't it? :smile:

An absolutely wonderful and well-written post. I wholeheartedly agree, and (I guess) I couldn't have approached a better point on the overrated robot (AI).

After reading your posts, I can't come to the conclusion about what is more senseless to you: either being Spanish or hispanidad, which are different things. If your point is that our civil war and our continuous confrontation are senseless, then I agree. But I don't know to what extent it is related to the decolonising of South America. I think the senseless hysteria came afterwards.

On the other hand, you would be surprised seeing that we have a low self-esteem. So, I hardly believe that some would confront you for being anti-español. I think that rhetoric only applies among Spaniards. We will not burn everything down for the sake of our country.

moving to cheaper southern states, and then to the Caribbean and Mexico, and finally Asia. — BC

Oddly, those are the countries where child labour is a reality, and they were condemned multiple times by useless organisations (UN) for not respecting children's rights, such as education. We had the same issue in both Europe and the USA back in the 19th century. A lot of people (infants included) had to die to change the circumstances for the better. We consider that a developed nation has their children learning in schools and playing freely with friends, not allocated in a steel factory manufacturing screws. Yet this is how the hypocrisy of our politicians pops up again. We don't want a child from Madrid or Minneapolis to work in factories, but we go to nations where they don't care about crossing those lines: Mexico, India, Bangladesh, Vietnam, and (sadly) a large etc.

There are a lot of workers who can not afford to buy the goods and services they produce. — BC

Yeah. I would not say "the land for the one who works on it" because I know everything is more complex than just that. But it is a problem how a large number of workers don't earn enough to purchase not only the goods and services they produce but others. I mean, there are works that, even with an income they are still considered poor.

And now a ski lift has collapsed in Northern Spain. Hey, wait: Don't blame Spain. It might very well be the fault of the French or the Germans. — BC

:rofl:

You should be thanking Israel for eliminating them. — BitconnectCarlos

Thanking a nation that has been threatening us since the first day we showed empathy towards Palestinians and whose citizens celebrated our deaths on Valencia's floods? No, mate.

Spain could buy he high tech machines from the Netherlands, just up the coast a ways, who have a lock on the premier fabrication technology (so I have read). — BC

Do you know what the main product we buy from our Dutch friends is? -- tractors. They are all over the rural areas, and each farmer has at least two.

Yet that's another good example of how we are dependent upon other countries' machines...

It's just damn hard to compete with cheap labor of the sort that Asia has in abundance. (Not that your average Asian likes being cheap labor on behalf of Foxconn, Apple, et al.). — BC

That was not only a big failure of Spain but the European Union altogether. Our politicians decided back in the 1990s and early 2000s that it was better to manufacture everything in random Chinese villages, with zero labour rights. Important Spanish companies like INDITEX (Zara) have their manufacturers there and in Bangladesh. This caused a heated debate in Congress like two years ago, blaming Amancio Ortega for being a modern slaver. As you say, it is barely possible to compete with those prices and wages, and most companies would prefer to go there. They only care about benefits, not investment. The worst thing is that the average income in Spain is around €1,130, and I consider it low... So, we are a cheap labour land but in a European context.

What a total disaster it has been. — Tzeentch

:up:

46,000 dead souls were needed for a cease-fire. It is hard to give relevance to Western organisations such as the UN, honestly.

Spain does have a tourist industry, which means service employees, and sadly they don't get paid a lot. — BC

Exactly, good point.

Spain also produces quite a lot of agricultural products--essential to everyone who likes to eat, but the big money is in processing and marketing food, not in growing it. BTW, I have a bottle of Spanish olive oil in the kitchen. So... — BC

Agricultural products are usually our ace in the hole. We know we are the only country in Europe with the weather standards to sell fruits and olives to all European countries all year. It is important, but again, agriculture is not a high-value market either. I do not know how many tonnes of oranges or cabbages we should import to match with German cars or Italian luxury markets. I see it as barely impossible.

Spain also produces ceramics and flamingo dresses. — BC

When I travelled through different countries, I remember that some locals had objects done with Spanish ceramic, like vessels. I see ceramics deserve more potential, but I understand that other products (like marble) are more popular or valued in international markets.

My advice: keep digging. — BC

I guess ecologists would not be happy with that, and also the incumbent government has 'green' politicians, so the idea of mining is not available for the moment.

Has Spain considered more manufacturing? There's a big demand these days for military drones, for instance. — BC

Pedro Sanchez wanted to build a factory of microchips in Madrid. His aim was to be the "Taiwan of the European Union," but the project was gone when it faced reality for two reasons:

1) We are also a country with a high number of low-skilled workers. Who would manufacture those microchips?

2) Prices. People would always manufacture everything in China and their surroundings. It is cheaper, and the workers do not cry for help and trade union assistance.

From the 1960's on until 1990, my grandmother went to Spain every year for three months for her winter holiday. — Tom Storm

Wow! She was so brave for spending three months in the 1960s and even 1970s, considering that we were clearly an undeveloped nation. I imagine she had to struggle with different challenges; language in the first place, for instance. I appreciate how your grandmother always decided to come back during three decades. I guess she told interesting anecdotes. Furthermore, your grandmother was an important witness of the first years of Spain's development.

In the 1970's my mum and dad sometimes talked about the transition to democracy and hoped that Spain would make the journey from Franco to freedom. I would have thought the reforms and advancements were worth it. — Tom Storm

Glad to know! That's what I wanted to read. Some testimonials by people who remember that actually their family talked about the death of Franco and then the birth of democracy. Thanks for sharing your personal experience, Tom. :up:

But if you are suspicious of government and consider your democracy to be flawed and shameful, then you would be like every second young person in any Western country on earth who is convinced their country's government is shit and that no one tells the truth. — Tom Storm

True. I agree.

:up:

I think you did the right thing by avoiding the subject completely. If only we were not a divided nation, I guess you could have had some interesting conversations about Franco. Yet this is impossible, and I label two different types of Spaniards in this topic: the ones who try to avoid talking about politics (I include myself here) and the ones whose vision is the only one that is right.

Although it has been fifty years, Franco's typical aspects are still in the mindset. For example, my grandparents still calculate everything using pesetas instead of euros (it seems that the EU never happened to them, but Franco remains...), and people have a negative view of police officers and the army since these were always pro-Franco.

But I feel that everything changed quickly. Whoever said in 1975 that Spain would be one of the first countries to recognise same-sex marriage, for example? But, at the same time, I feel that negative historical features still kick in the perspective of foreign people who observe my nation on the other side of the pond.

On the other hand, thank you for having my country in a positive perspective. Yes, I remember the short story of Moriscos. I posted a picture trying to guess if it was plotted in Denia or a closer town. It was fun!

That said, I have no idea why Spain strikes him as more repressive than other parts of Europe, and what he thinks the Islamic history has to do with that. — Jamal

I have no idea either. I "shot him down" because of the amount of prejudices his post had. Something that I never expected from T Clark.

I want to summarise it briefly: Franco is still a part of Spanish consciousness. It was a dictator that was in office for 39 years, and we can't get rid of that from the night to the morning. He kidnapped our identity, and after his death, Spain has not been capable of building a real identity: Are we European? Are we a democracy? Are we poor or rich? Are we illiterate?

If you check the government website, it says that everything under Franco was bad and we were backwards. But now everything is good, and we are important to EU members at least. But I was sceptical regarding that. When I travelled around the EU, I didn't experience discrimination, but it is true that I felt people had a negative notion of our economy, development, people's rights, etc.

People even labelled as a "PIGS" country (Portugal, Ireland, Greece, and Spain) like the bad zone of Europe.

We are not perfect, and I am aware that we are still far from Germany or the UK. But what was the improvement for the past fifty years then?

Since it is barely possible to get an objective answer in my country, I thought it was a good idea to start a thread here, since I am aware that some of you even lived here. So your opinion also counts, even more than some journalists and media here...I think that the point is that every Spaniard has in mind that due to having Franco for almost three decades, we lost opportunities for being a European nation. But we joined the club in 1986. So, we have been Europeans the same time that we have been under Franco.

How we handled the situation in Catalunya? Etc.If you didn't care a bit, I completely respect it and understand your position, Jamal. But I don't get why folks expect us to be like that because we had "Islamic culture" and the Inquisition. Basically, it seems like nobody can expect an improvement here.

A doubling of the average income over 50 years isn't terribly good, unless you compare it to the growth in wages between, say, 500 a.d. and 1400 a.d. when wages didn't grow at all. But working people in many countries have suffered from slowly rising income over the last 50 years. So welcome to our oppression by capitalist scum! — BC

I agree! Good point, BC. But, seriously talking, we are a country of very low wages. I tried to find out why. I guess the problem of having low incomes is due to our economy depending on low-quality products. Thus, services.
We are a country of holiday resorts, not of luxury cars or modern technology...I raged because the incumbent government shows it as a big improvement. Seriously? Wow, at least they don't talk about the unemployment rate. This is what hurts me the most.

Hello Tobias! You can't imagine how happy your post made me feel. It was a good start this morning, Sunday.

There is a lot to talk about, but I appreciate an important thing: you actually visited my country with your parents in that period of time, so you experienced how Spain was in the first years after Franco's death. Therefore, your opinion and points are objective and well taken. Also, I like how you talk very fondly about your summertime. It could be a topic for a short story! :cool:

My point in this thread was exactly what you summarised in your post. I wanted to know if we had an improvement here, because it is very difficult to talk about Franco here, as you could imagine. It is still a taboo topic. I believe Spain has changed a lot over the past 50 years, but the incumbent government uses a florid message. We are still a country with low wages, and there are issues regarding our democracy. We are not perfect. But I wanted to know if we could sit at the same table as other nations like the Netherlands or France. After reading your post, I think yes, we can.

I didn't want to be nostalgic in my post, I promise. Every Spaniard knows perfectly the situation of our country, and we know that we don't have influence worldwide. For example, we tried to recognise Palestine as a state nation, and nobody cared, etc. But none of us want to be like Germany or France. We know we are particular, and we are happy with that. Yet a large number of us think that we are the "shithole" of Europe. For example: I was in Bratislava once, and a person asked me, "Where are you from?" And then I replied, "I am from Spain!" And she wondered if I was really able to keep a conversation in English because we are very poor regarding English skills and educational matters. You can't imagine how this hurts our pride...

We always compare ourselves to North European nations and wonder why we are not like you. But this is a utopia. It is impossible because our idiosyncrasies are different.

I think 2017 was crucial for modern Spain. I am talking about our crisis regarding Catalonia. I was in the university in that period of time and most of us thought that the rest of EU members would rant on us. We also carry the prejudice of being a repressive nation, you know. But I was surprised that EU members respected our sovereignty and decided that it was better to solve the issue in our own way. 8 years later is no longer a problem, and blood has not been shed. I think this was a good example that we are a European-respected nation, with our pros and cons absolutely. I wish we could fix our low wages and unemployment ratio one day.

A very intelligent and well-written answer. I’m sorry—it’s true that discussing Franco is very difficult (and, I admit, even uninteresting). Honestly, I expected you to provide insightful responses, and I was right. I remember when we talked in the Hispanidad thread. It was a fruitful discussion.

I give up—Hispanic matters are not something Anglos seem to care about. They will never make an effort to understand us. I think it would have been more effective to address this topic in your thread about Hispanidad.

Fair enough. I understand what you meant, so don't worry. I'm just a bit disappointed because, after reading many of your posts, I thought you were more open-minded on certain issues. That's all. I don't want to offend you either.

You criticize me for having the Inquisition and 'Islamic culture' in my history, yet you find it acceptable to have nuked Japan twice. Americans are very hard to understand...

Interesting and I feel the vibe of the song. Also, I guess you thought in bulls when Spain crossed to your mind, but I could be misunderstood!

Spain has always struck me as a more rigid repressive society than other places in Europe. I think that’s partly because of its history of Islamic culture and partly because of Franco and Spanish Civil War. And then there is the Spanish inquisition, which none of us expect. — T Clark

Don't worry, I didn't expect positive comments towards my country when I started this thread, but I thought it was worth starting it anyway.

My point was to see if you had negative prejudices towards my country. Sadly, I was right about what I thought. I asked if modern Spain could be considered a democracy, and you didn't address that question but only posted bad and stereotypical comments. 

What comes to my mind is the stereotypical cultural studies student, who is fascinated about cultures and traditions of all people except his or her own. — ssu

I understand you now. Yes, the hypocrisy we are used to hearing from some university faculties.

They are not at all laughing at him, but smiling and in the following video you can see people clapping their hands. — ssu

Ah! Sorry, my bad. The picture tricked me because I interpreted they were laughing at him...

And especially since Yukio hadn't himself served... — ssu

But Mishima didn't serve because the bureaucracy didn't allow him to. He did the checking in a random army post in a small town in central Japan, and they rejected him because he wasn't strong enough and he was ill. Furthermore, it seems that his father set up everything with the aim of avoiding his son being selected to the Imperial Army. They were a rich family, and his father recommended him to study and obtain better positions in society. But that trauma of being rejected to fight for your country was in Mishima's mind the rest of his life. He wished to be a kamikaze, but his destiny resulted in him being one of the best writers in the Japanese language ever.

Weren't you Spanish? I think that you will find it in your history too. — ssu

No way! Not even close to the average Japanese politician.

Those values that I referred to previously are very important today. Remember Naoto Kan? The Prime Minister incumbent when the Fukushima disaster happened? Well, he resigned because he admitted that he and his cabinet didn't manage the crisis well. It is impossible to see that here...

Think about. What would we think about a writer that would be an ardent patriot like Mishima if he would be German? He would be the jingoist ultra-nationalist and people would just try to find hints of nazism, white supremacy and racism in his writings. How would a German who would favour Prussian militarism look like today? — ssu

Yes, I agree. He would be heavily criticised, and his works would suffer a bit of censorship, or at least he would be sued and seated in a trial. Yet I think there are some differences between the Mishima we already know and the hypothetical German writer who would have looked like Mishima. The first always rooted for values that are very hard to be understood in the Western world, while the second spread a sense of supremacy around the world. Yes, I know Japan had imperialistic views towards Korea and China, but according to Mishima, that's just politics, and he wanted to focus on the spirit of the nation, and (again) Japan is intrinsically violent, although they promoted actions of peace since the 1945 debacle.

Above all, remember how the Japanese soldiers of the new Self-Defence forces reacted to Mishima. They started to hiss and jeer. — ssu

A very good point, ssu. Honestly, after reading biographies on Mishima's life, I think he had never expected such a reaction from the Self-Defence Forces. I also think that it was suspended by a thread: if he gained the respect of military forces, Mishima would have won hope in Japan otherwise. Otherwise, it would have a perfect cause for committing suicide since he would no longer believe in a modern Japanese society. Better or worse, it happened the latter...

But it doesn't matter if it's scenario A or B. He always had death in his mind, because it was the purest possible situation to him.

just like the story of the last Hiro Onoda, the last Japanese soldier to surrender in the Phillipines in 1974. Well, he too was disappointed about post-WW2 when he finally got back to Japan.

Hiro Onoda surrendering in 1974. — ssu

Yes, I read some articles on Onoda. Look how the people are laughing at him and his katana. Did the Japanese really deserve that disrespect? :roll:

I wonder what Mishima would have written about Onoda — ssu

Yeah! I wonder that too! I guess he would have written a novel like Runaway Horses but changing the plot and focusing on Mr. Onoda.

Damn! I have always missed that pure loyalist behaviour that the useless politicians of my country don't have...

we don't have this instant recoil that we would have if Mishima would have been a German, an Englishman or an American. This tells something about us, not of the Japanese or their culture. — ssu

ssu, I don't follow you in that quote. What do you mean by "instant recoil" if Mishima would have been German instead of Japanese?

Japan has always been a warfare nation. Until 1861, when Japan started to get 'modernised,' thus having contact with Western nations, it was very common to have guerrillas and bloodbaths amongst samurai. Consider that one of the main points of Bushidō principles is to die with honour in the field rather than run away like rabbits. Mishima got disappointed with the Emperor and the current ministers of Japan in the post-WWII era because they decided to end everything, not only accepting the loss of the war but also how "backwards" the Japanese values were. Since then, Mishima, amongst others, started with a romanticism of old days, when they used katana instead of a pistol or they wore yukata instead of suits. Is that nationalism or a defence of your roots and values? Well, Mishima was in that dilemma the rest of his life.

Oh, and Japan is a very nationalistic country nowadays with its lobby running party called Nippon Kaigi.

which includes an in-the-moment appreciation of beauty, sort of like being lucky to be there in the moment? — Dawnstorm

Yes, exactly. But rather than being lucky, it is a sense of redemption. He—Mishima—thought it was possible to build things with the art of destroying them. Consider this: thanks to setting the temple on fire, it became a legendary building in Japan.

I'm hardly an expert in Japanese culture, but I'm certainly not used to have this concept be accompanied by such violent language. I'd guess it's an expression of passion? — Dawnstorm

Passion? Hmm... good. I think it is a correct adjective of what Mishima had in mind when he wrote his works. We have to understand that Mishima was very fond of Samurai culture and values, and the latter is intrinsically violent. One of Mishima's traumas was not having the chance to fight in WWII, because he thought it would be priceless to die defending the honour of his homeland. Since then, he always had a fetish for war and bellicose topics. Too much passion on him?

I believe he used language that was pure and sophisticated rather than violent. He published his final novel on the same day he committed suicide. Mishima was that type of genius...

I try to make an effort in reading books in both languages, although I mostly read in Spanish.

John Cheever is one of the authors that I only read in English. I don't think I've ever attempted to read one of his translated works. His novels are very well written and easy to follow for a non-native like me. I tend to buy his books from an Irish bookshop called "Kennys," but I remember purchasing one book from a random bookshop located in the USA. It took me about a month to receive it.

Morning and Evening by Jon Fosse.

Fosse's talented narrative grasps our attention in this short but intense novella. The first four pages are about the birth of a child in a random coastal village, and then the same child becomes an elder remembering the old days fishing with his dad.

Melancholia, nostalgia, memories... all I love in literature.

Sorry, Tom. I didn't put context in the quotes. That specific one refers to a novella called The Temple of the Golden Pavilion.

The plot is about a young monk with suicidal and pessimistic temptations but with a clear vision of what is beautiful or sublime. He is named to learn Buddhist scriptures in a temple all coloured in gold and with a gorgeous garden. It is so beautiful that he even thought being there is the only reason for keeping living. Also, there are interesting debates in the book about what beauty or ugliness is; one character has a deformity, and he is called "flat feet," but he is very talented at flirting with girls, not like the monk, who opts to lose his virginity paying a prostitute; he finds sublimity in death rather than in pleasures, etc.

Nonetheless, one of his best friends at the temple kills himself without an apparent reason, and the protagonist starts in a madness looking for a good reason to end up with his life, not like his friend. Surprisingly, he came to the conclusion that beauty and death can be together, so he plans to burn the temple with himself inside. That's why the quote says: True beauty is something that attacks, overpowers, robs, and finally destroys.

When the temple is set on fire, he actually didn't feel bad. He came to this conclusion: Everything that is truly beautiful has an end because if it lasts forever we would have the risk of getting tired of contemplating that beauty...

Happy 100th birthday, sensei! :party:

It has been a while since the last time I read books of Mishima, but they are always in my mind.

Confessions of a Mask; The Temple of the Golden Pavilion; After the Banquet; The Age of Blue...

I feel a bit nostalgic. I remember Mishima was the main point of my first threads when I joined TPF years ago...

True beauty is something that attacks, overpowers, robs, and finally destroys.

:fire:

Perfect purity is possible if you turn your life into a line of poetry written with a splash of blood.

:sparkle:

I still have no way to survive but to keep writing one line, one more line, one more line...

:broken:

In the seventh priority, Liberal Party claims:

Labor’s approach to national security is weak, as shown by cuts to important defence spending (now under 2 per cent of GDP) and the significant shift in Australia’s foreign policy position towards our ally Israel.

We also waste 2 percent of GDP in defence spending, and I already consider it pretty high. I think it is a waste of money and resources if the digit is above two, but Trump will probably threaten all NATO countries to increase it.

Also, they say in the pamphlet: our ally Israel... mate. :death:

You seem to be hopeless regarding the situation of Georgia and Ivanishvili; it is understandable if we look at the precedents of ex-Soviet republics. But I think it is not useless to debate the fate of that oligarch. Maybe my prediction that he would be the next domino tile falling is a bit risky, but no one is safe in his position in this continuously changing world. We will see what happens, and we will discuss it in this thread. :smile:

Ivanishvili hasn't been and won't be the only oligarch who is booted out.

Since there is also a thread about Syria and al-Assad, I can't see the inconvenience of talking about another rich puppet and his eventual fall from power. There is a lot of pressure on Georgia at the moment, and we should not discard that Ivanishvili might be the next domino tile falling.

Also, Georgian people deserve our care and attention. They are struggling to get a future closer to the European Union. We should not ignore them.

Good points.

I think the indigenous people of Spain were the Iberians, and now my DNA is a mix of Romans, Visigoths, Moors, and other random people in the old settlements in North Africa. I am cool with that.

Yes, we belong to the same place: the earth. But I think it is relevant to the soil where you were born. At least I believe I would be completely different if I were born in the middle of Australia instead of Southwestern Europe, although both places are in the same spot* of the vast universe.

* Approximate dimensions.

The bastards will have to negotiate. — Banno

Well, but I think that's a good thing after all. Politics should be the practice of negotiating with the aim of getting agreements done. It will be interesting to see that proportional difference between the Senate and Congress; most of the EU zone countries work in such a way. All of them have coalition governments. It is not appropriate to have a supermajority because it doesn't really represent people.

this is an example of what I think about when I think about Oceanic Continentalism: — Arcane Sandwich

Do you root for some kind of indigenismo politics?

Wait a minute, in the context of science as well as the world of lawyers, evidence does indeed constitute proof if certain conditions are met. Or do you disagree with that? — Arcane Sandwich

Absolutely. I work at the Land Registry, and I provide a lot of evidence and facts in countless land trials every month. But I thought we were in a different context: an interesting discussion between two online friends and not in a court discussing in front of a judge. :smile:

But I don't think that there's an "elite mafia" running the world. We (as in, the people who are not part of the criminal world) would have destroyed them by now. Or do you disagree with that? — Arcane Sandwich

Hmm... Good point. It is not worthy to be sceptical and suspicious. But I wasn't referring to a mafia elite either. I don't claim they use bad practices to influence politics, but I do think they have power in some manner. I guess, in modern times, a phone call by a person that I believe is important is more relevant than a shot. Now that we are in a thread called 'Australian politics,' it comes to my mind who was the person who proposed to bring Eucalyptus from Australia because it is evident that Franco was limited intellectually. Well, that's the kind of powerful hidden folks that I am thinking of.

Ok. Is there at least one example? One person that belongs to that group? — Arcane Sandwich

A few months ago there was an interesting conflict in the port of Murcia. A ship from a country (Germany, if I am not mistaken), supposedly holding weapons and missiles for Israel, was about to dock in the named port. Yet the notice was quickly spread around like dust, and it ended up in court.

Who was the one who knew about the boat?
How did he know the boat had weapons?
Who pulled the strings in that case? :smile:

It is obvious that those people are not pulling the strings because since I said some do it in the "dark" it means that there are people who are hidden, but they hold an important size of power. That's the point. It is more relevant to them to use puppets to rule on. I never claimed they are evil. I just pointed out his relevance.
Do I have evidence? No. Does evidence prove everything? No. Since the premise is that some folks rule the politics hidden by the leaves it would be contradictory to say I can mask them off. It is OK if you think I am in denial. But they are there, whether you accept their existence or not.

What evidence do we have that there are people doing that (pulling the strings in the dark)? Isn't that just a conspiracy theory? — Arcane Sandwich

The people who pull the strings in the dark don't play dice. :wink:

I mean, where do you place the Royalty and the nobility in that analysis? Are they "the people"? Are they "the enterprises"? — Arcane Sandwich

The people vs bourgeois. A classic match in European societies. I can't think of a country that is the exception to the rule. It has been the same power struggle since the 19th century. Back in the day, the people called "nobleman" to mates who looked like Elon Musk in our modern era. No doubt about that!

Where would one place the Pope in the classic battle between people and enterprises? — Arcane Sandwich

They are not even related or connected to the same struggle which is the extension and limitations of the rule of the capital. What is the rule of the Pope on increasing the income or monopolising the market? None. Well, yes, back in the day he used to fund wars. But that was a long time ago.

Where would one place religions like Hinduism or Buddhism in the "we and them, masses and the elite" battle? — Arcane Sandwich

Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, etc. Is another expression of masses themselves...
.

All I'm saying is that the reality of politics cannot be reduced to the "mass vs the elite" battle, IMHO. I mean, some musicians (i.e., the Rolling Stones) and some athletes (i.e., Lionel Messi) are millionaires. Does that automatically turn them into oppressors of the poor? I don't think so. — Arcane Sandwich

It is obvious that Messi and the Rolling Stones are not part of the elite although they are rich.

Elites are the unknown persons who pull the strings in the dark with the aim of protecting the advantages of their privilege.

Yeah, good brief summary, Kazan. :up:

I guess most social democrats went from Marxism or communism to a modern socialist perspective. Some of them no longer call themselves 'socialists' but 'social democrats.'
That wave started in the Nordic countries around the 1960s or 1970s and spread all over the world, with the only exception of the U.S.A. (because they don't know what social democracy is.)

citizens government ownership economics set in a democratic political state. — kazan

Yeah, exactly. The classic battle between people and enterprises; we and them; the mass and the elite. Ah, beautiful. Isn't it? Imagine your country never experienced some of those historical features. We can be proud of being Europeans or Australians too!

Age, property and god are conservative, while the educated tend to the left. — Banno

It was expected, as well as most countries of the EU zone. Most of the greens are also leaning to the left here. It is understandable since traditional conservatives lean toward reactionary political parties that deny climate change and even blame social democrats for a fire or floods.

Australians do have a preference for socialist policy, quite a difference to the US. — Banno

Because socialist or leftist policies do exist in AU. Although Elon Musk is continuing to show his dementia, socialism per se never existed there. They never had a 'labour' party like in the UK or AU; neither did they have social democrats like in Sweden, Spain, Portugal, or Germany.