So you agree that God needs to be perfect? — Tobias

No, I have said that "something" needs to exists previously to be perfect. Because perfection is a characteristic we often use to describe some things or persons and these need to have existence.
For me, God is worthless. I mean I can't see why theists put on them so big characteristics.

Anselm's Ontological Argument — Agent Smith

Another wacky "ontological" argument to defend God's existence.
Why God has to be the "greatest" thing?

God due to his perfection does need to exist. — Tobias

This sounds so contradictory and even has no sense. Perfection needs to be connected to something that at least has existence because you can perceive it so accurately that you end up calling it "perfect"

Dads (well our parents as overall) tend to make efforts to be funny with us but they end up being cringe. I think this situation happens due to the collapse of different generations. What some would think it is funny, others would see it as "cringe"
I guess if I were a dad, I would make bad/ridiculous jokes in a unconscious way.

If truth isn't the first principle, one cannot really believe the second and third principles. — unenlightened

That's a good point but I guess the big issue here is that Hinduism tend to develop those elements separately.
Truth, good, aesthetics, beautiful, etc... are represented like in a circle. They are not hierarchical.
I even think we should not think on it as our "West" thought but what Buddhism really stands for.

I am agree with you. Wages or "low-paid" jobs are so connected with modern slavery. It is true that they have an "income" but it is ridiculous and I think it is far to have a minimum digit to live according the basic circumstances

What's the difference really between being paid $0 and a wage of $0.0001? — Agent Smith

"$0" is just the numerical representation of nothing. Zero was a creation of Muslim mathematicians.
"$0.0001" has at least a value but so poor. We philosophically calle it "nothing" to that digit because it doesn't represent the "minimum wage" according to Western markets and civilisation.

English doesn’t lend itself very well to this non-conceptual structure. Most English translations of the TTC have something of the translator’s own life experience and value structures in them, as well as their conceptualisation of Chinese history and culture - none of which can be found in the original text. It makes it difficult to get a clear sense of the text by comparing only one or two English translations. — Possibility

Joanna C. Lee and Ken Smith, who have a good translation and provide both characters and a Pinyin transcription (all but unheard of in other translations), simply break the Tao Te Ching into two separate little books, The Pocket Tao, Lao Tzu's Classic of the Way [A Museworks Book, Pocket Chinese Classics, 2012] and The Pocket Te, Lao Tzu's Classic of Virtue [A Museworks Book, Pocket Chinese Classics, 2013]. The order in which to read these is thus up to the reader.

Book I does begin with statements about the Tao, and Book II with statements about Te. Since the Tao might be thought to be more important than Te, the format that reverses the books may then simply reflect that judgment, with the treatment of Te as an introduction or preliminary to the Tao. It is not clear that reversing the order would really make any difference in the teaching.

Verse 1: "The Way that can be spoken of, Is not the constant way."

The quality or preconceptions of a translation of the Tao Te Ching can usually be determined from the rendering of these lines. Those determined to unpack the meaning of Taoism in the translation, according to their own interpretation of Taoist doctrine, will often render these terse sentences into a paragraph, sometimes with irrecognizable renderings of the key words. The affection of a translator for Taoism cannot excuse a method that only obscures the nature of the text itself.

• Most venerable of all is that of James Legge in 1891: "The Tâo that can be trodden [!!] is not the enduring and unchanging Tâo" [Dover, 1962, p.47].
• Then we have D.T. Suzuki and Paul Carus in 1913 & 1927: "The Reason that can be reasoned is not the eternal Reason" [Open Court, 1974, p.74].
• Charles Muller in 2005: "The Tao that can be followed [!!] is not the eternal Tao" [Barnes and Noble Classics, 2005, p.3].
• And finally let's try Joanna C. Lee and Ken Smith in 2012: "The Way that is speakable is not the constant Way." [Museworks Books, Hong Kong, 2012, p.17].

A serious question about translation is with tào as a verb. Since the noun can mean "road, way, path," Legge, Mair, Le Guin, and Muller are all tempted to produce a corresponding verb, "tred," "walk," "go," or "follow"… However, although Mathews' Chinese Dictionary [Harvard, 1972, pp.882-884] gives verbal meanings for the character as "speak, tell" (or even "lead, guide"), "tred," "walk," "go," or "follow" is not among them. Interestingly, no one has tried the translation, "The Tao that guides is not the constant Tao." The feeling seems to be that the Tao does guide. Indeed, in Chinese philosophy a "Way" means the actions recommended by any particular school or teaching, not just Taoism.

Language doesn't give a damn about logic!

Wether we like it or not, language is one the most complex barriers we have to face since we arevjust kids.

The world is my representation — Arthur Schopenhauer

Agree with Schopenhauer's quote. But that's representation is based on our language

- in which the rapscallion husband makes his wife think she's insane for his own personal gain! — Agent Smith

Oh wow! :sweat:

I quickly found out this definition:
Gaslighting is a colloquialism, loosely defined as making someone question their own reality.

Now, I know what you're talking about :rofl:

So...

I guess the concepts differ in the effects. While gaslight tend to be caused by the individual himself, scepticism comes from physical objects

gaslighting — Agent Smith

To be honest with you my dear friend, it is the first I ever read this word so I would check it out in my English-Spanish dictionary :sweat:

It's obviously invalid.

And yet, with a few bells and whistles, that is what Fumerton espouses. — Banno

I am agree that Furmeton uses very weak arguments to expose his scepticism. Nevertheless, I thought it was a good argument
when he said we are not acquainted if a physical object really exists itself. Like, supposedly, we tend to not make such questions because those exists because it is "obvious"

Some people hallucinating whether it be a sublime experience, a symptom of mental illness, or the result of psychedelics are not able to distinguish between the hallucinations and the real. In which case, these people are said to have "poor insight" particularly common in schizophrenics. — Josh Alfred

:100: :up:

I can distinguish between my hallucinations and my actual perceptions. One takes place in the brain without an external stimulus, while the others occur as a result of physical sensation. — Josh Alfred

I see your point. But I think that the big issue emerges when our physical world leads us in hallucination. I mean, when you are not able to really distinguish physical objects from brain senses.
Nevertheless, it is true that there is, at least, one basic point: objects itself do exist because they are "there" not mattering our thoughts.
I think we could say they exist independently from us.

The question is not whether what I perceive is real but what kind of thing is being perceived.

Good argument. I think we can answer your point through philosophy of language. I guess there are some objects that at least are real but how we perceive it depends on our perception of reality thanks to empiricism.

I see smoke in the distance. Is it smoke from a fire? Is it a cloud? Dust in my eye? It is something.

But we are not mistaken about what is the concept of smoke, right? Those characteristics are collateral

This is by far the best site for intellectual play I can easily find via Google. That's not flattery.

Completely agree. This is, by far, the only serious site Iever found in internet. Previously, I was in a Neon Genesis Evangelion forum and I ended up with a trauma.

This thread brings me a lot of nostalgia. Thanks for sharing all these comments on verse n⁰ 23. Yeah I remember that we had many debates about this one back in the day.

Religion: Faith is the foundation of things hoped for,
and the evidence of things not seen. :up:

What is that person doing to help? — Jackson

Nothing, but he is destroying my integrity and honor.

How do they impose? — Jackson

Through political lobbies and social media. Imagine: some individual records me not helping a homeless man in the train. What would you think of me? And the masses as an overall?

Why do I have to help other persons? — Jackson

You don’t. But the society or the masses would impose you that if you do not do so, you would be amoral.

Christianity is a religion that sees itself as a promise of life, hope, comfort, and love. "Gospel" in English is from Old English gôd, "good," and spell, "tale." This translates Greek Euangélion, "good news" -- whence the term "evangelism."

Many people, however, see the promise of Christianity as a threat, not as good news. If you don't join this religion, you are going to Hell, no matter how good a person you may otherwise be. Outside the Church is damnation. Jesus said (John 14:6), "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Faith is the foundation of things hoped for,
and the evidence of things not seen. :flower: :death:

On the other hand…

Just as the boatman sits in his small boat, trusting his frail craft in a stormy sea that is boundless in every direction, rising and falling with the howling, mountainous waves, so in the midst of a world full of suffering and misery the individual man calmly sits, supported by and trusting the principium individuationis, or the way in which the individual knows things as appearance. - Arthur Schopenhauer

Getting the distinct feeling that Ortega's book has been abused vulgarly — ZzzoneiroCosm

I am agree. Ortega’s essay about masses (I guess one of the most important works for the Western civilization in the beginning of XX century) tend to be misunderstood by an incredible number of people. I even heard of some saying: Ortega is just defending the elites. Sorry if I a mad man but I bet my hands that is literally the opposite: how the masses can react against the angry bourgeois (señorito insatisfecho)

On the contrary! We're the best, and, although on the brink of annihilation, there is hope for the new times arriving before too not too long. — Hillary

Oh, Hillary, I am jealous of your positiveness

The Scarlet Gang of Asakusa by Yasunari Kawabata (川端 康成)

It is not only about masses or elites. Ortega made an important study on the señorito insatisfecho: This Spanish slang can be translated to unsatisfactory bourgeois. The one who did not see the state as a political or culture entity but as their pure own interests.
According to Ortega this would be one of the most threats of European, USA, or Western states. The fact these entities would give up on their values could let the "markets" or "banks" only governing themselves. Forgetting the culture and values which were the cause of the born of Western civilisation could let these states in a context of being governed by a nonsense.
Sadly, it looks like this situation is what has been established. Keep in mind that politics are based on market/monetary rules doesn't caring for cultural or historical aspects. The European Union, for example, doesn't seem to pursue cultural benefits but only eurosystem one.

We cannot put monetary value into our lives because we are not worthy of it. The life of a person is worthless since they born until they die.
Whenever I think in the act of survival it only comes to my mind pain and uncertainty.
I guess you cannot satisfy those feelings with just a few bucks. It is impossible. Some states and entrepreneurs overrated money and the monetary system. I guess it is due to speculation.

Yukio Mishima, a right wing fascist who killed himself when he came to the realization that Japan has moved on — Wittgenstein

If you really think our lord and leader Yukio Mishima is a "fascist", you misunderstood everything. Give it a try and read more about him. He would change your thoughts and life. Believe me.

You are disappointed with modernism — Wittgenstein

I am disappointed and I hate all related to modernism. We are the worst generation ever. But it looks like doesn't matter at all because the people are not aware of it and it turns out I am the mad man here... but you know? I no longer want to be angry. If they want to be happy in their blindness is ok for me. I don't know how to help them.

Diogenes was a real example of a "hermit" and not those fake religious fans who only act for businesses and private concerns

It is interesting how you classified the suicide as outright rejection of the game. Sorry, but I am disagree with you in this specific point. You express it as a failure, a defeat, an act of giving up by someone. It looks like a scape from the rules they are forced to play in the game. I think you are not appreciating suicide in his most beautiful aspect: freedom.

In my humble opinion, I would describe suicide as an act of freedom where an individual decides to end his life. Inside this context is important to understand what has been occurring until the last the day. But... I don't see it could be for lack of production inside a community. A suicidal does not have the aim to live grouped. They prefer to live in loneliness because they understand that it is better to live off from society. We can be agree here and say they are not producers because they don't take part in this issue since the beginning.
I personally see suicide as very personal ending, very respectful and even aesthetic depending on the context (I can put some Japanese writers as examples: Kawabata, Dazai, Mishima, Akutagawa...)

Conclusion: I can't connect a suicidal/loneliness individual on your philosophy of production.

Once you know it's not possible to proof the existence of anyone ( yourself, the universe and God ) . You stop with the childish disputes of theism vs atheism. — Wittgenstein

It is not even worthy at all. There are more realistic aspects to focus in. The existence of myself or God is limited to a simplistic debate

Have you ever thought that, the musicians, artists, poets also have something to teach you about life. They are not here to entertain you. Learn from them — Wittgenstein

Artists, poets, writers, and philophers have always been the brave citizens who expressed their emotions against a cosmological dictatorship you pretend to defend: God.
I highlight your own words: learn from all of those who develop critical thinking

I don't think it's easy to proof the existence of the universe or even yourself if you want to go down that path.

Neither God's existence.

He should have wasted less time on philosophy and spent more time on love before condemning it and if love is a mental illness,

Damn believers. You waste so much time hating philosophy and knowledge

They surely don't exist in the same way we do. It's not weird to assign different categories/degrees to existence itself.

and then, you also pointed out:

the universe exists but in relation to God [...]

Two basic steps:
A) the universe itself doesn't need to be compared with that imaginary subterfuge called God because the universe exists and will exist doesn't matter if we live in earth or not.
B) you use contradictory arguments to pursue God's omnipotence, but do not worry, I do understand you can only achieve it through faith, not knowledge. What all you are writing is related to your own beliefs.

l wish l was capable of loving God

Be careful! Love is a serious mental disease - Plato.

God's mercy and love keeps the universe in a state of pseudo existence.

According to this proposition... The war, inflation, COVID pandemic, unemployment, and other serious issues are upon to God's mercy... Or what?

the universe is brought to the realm of psuedo existence from non-existence, but it has never tasted absolute existence which belongs to God only

Excuse sir, but what the f*ck is going on with your thoughts? :down:

1. Existence

2. Nonexistence

3. Physical

4. Nonphysical — Agent Smith

If you think about it more deeply you would end up with the conclusion that all of those characteristics are contradictory towards God's existence. I cannot put an argument about existentialism if I am using, at the same time, that this object could be physical or nonphysical at the same time. Like you have to choose one or another. Not both.
Aristotle: contradictory propositions cannot both be true 'at the same time and in the same sense

What I'd like to know is how a theist can retain belief in a nonphysical being (God) and still have a coherent definition of nonexistence. — Agent Smith

Because of faith. They just have beliefs, theists do not want knowledge. Even, when they use that, they tend to commit terrible paradoxes about God's existence.

To be honest, I don't know!

You're welcome, friend. I wish you can get some time and read more about Hinduism. I also enjoy reading all types of Asian culture/philosophy. It amazes me.

Good OP with a sage ending. I want to add a few words:
Six Schools" or "Six Doctrines" of "orthodox" Indian philosophy are the schools that accept the authority of the Vedas and thus religiously are considered part of Hinduism:
THE "SIX SCHOOLS" OF INDIAN PHILOSOPHY

• Mîmâṁsâ: "Interpretation," or Pûrva Mîmâṁsâ "Prior Interpretation,"
• Vedânta, , "End of the Vedas," or the Uttara Mîmâṁsâ, , "Posterior Interpretation,"
• Sânkhya, , "Counting, Reckoning, Reasoning, Knowledge," the School of Theoretical Knowledge.
• Yoga, , "Yoking, Vehicle, Equipment, Discipline,"
• Nyâya, , "Analysis," the School of Logic
• Vaiśeṣika, , "Individual Characteristics," the School of Pluralistic Metaphysics

Accepting the authority of the Vedas, however, does not mean actually using them. Mîmâṁsâ and Vedânta are specifically the schools of interpretation of the Vedas; the other four are based on independent reasoning. "Heterodox" schools, which reject the authority of the Vedas, are found in separate religions, like Buddhism and Jainism, or with the rare, reviled "materialists," whose own texts have all been lost. The treatment follows P.T. Raju's The Philosophical Traditions of India [University of Pittsburgh Press, 1971, p.35].

If a person means more than what they say, can a claim ever be justified?

I do not understand what you were asking for here. Do you mean in terms that we should express every action we take or in the claims we answer about.