Tank Man, our unknown protester hero.

1989* Tiananmen Square protests.

* 35th anniversary.

I'm returning to this with an apology to javi2541997 if I've made this too personal and critical. I've enjoyed very much participating in his thoughtful and engaging thread. Thank you — Amity

No worries, Amity. Please, don't think I got upset with you because I didn't. I appreciate the value that you gave to my thread. I love literature and I enjoy sharing comments and feedback here. But it is true that my thread is not philosophical enough. My aim is not even debate with others but trying to read more poems that can make me feel that 'unbearable nostalgia' that Kundera referred to in his novel.
Poetry may have a bit of philosophical content per se, but I mainly focused on nostalgic poems. These have a lot of art but not philosophical content. If I feel nostalgia reading a poem it is just a personal emotion of mine that escapes from rational thinking...

The thread is doing the work I was expecting, so everything is fine. :smile:

If Javi had made a brief argument as to how and why this is an important part of the appreciation of literature, that would have been enough to make it belong unambiguously on the main page, in my opinion. — Jamal

I agree. My intention was not to debate but to share poems where we could feel that 'unbearable nostalgia' that Kundera talked about in his novel. For this reason, I thought The Lounge was the correct place for the thread because I am honest and I admit that I didn't put in a high philosophical effort.

Some brief but good poems by Gloria Fuertes:

I’m alone… and I don’t know why
I would like to know, but I won’t tell…
I’m alone and I don’t know why,
I would like to kiss, and I don’t know who.
I’m in love… and I don’t know what.
I would like to know… and it can’t be.
I’m sad and lonely… and I don’t know why.

I was
born to be a poet or to be dead, I chose
the difficult
—I survive all the shipwrecks—,
and I continue with my verses,
alive and kicking.
I was born to be a whore or a clown,
I chose the difficult
part —to make evicted customers laugh—,
and I continue with my tricks,
pulling a dove out of my petticoat.
I was born for nothing or a soldier,
and I chose the difficult—
not to be hardly anything on the stage—
and I continue between rifles and pistols
without getting my hands dirty.

I found a Rilke poem... — Paine

Rilke was an excellent poet. I sadly didn't read that much from him. We don't have enough time in this life to read every important author of every country.

Behold the flowers, those true to the earthly,
to whom we lend fate from the edge of fate,--
Yet who can say? If they regret their fading,
it is for us to be their regret. — Rilke, Sonnets to Orpheus, 2nd part, 14, translated by Edward Snow

Ah, regret the fate. I couldn't have thought of a better bittersweet example of unbearable nostalgia.

O what wearisome teachers we are for things,
while in them eternal childhood prospers. — Rilke, Sonnets to Orpheus, 2nd part, 14, translated by Edward Snow

Another nostalgic feature: a childhood that will no longer be back.

all the quiet brothers and sisters in the meadow's wind. — Rilke, Sonnets to Orpheus, 2nd part, 14, translated by Edward Snow

I would pay to see a painting representing those two last verses!

We can learn 'interesting things' anywhere in TPF. — Amity

I don't think we can learn anything worthy from Donald Trump and 2024 U.S. Elections threads. But that's just my opinion, and I don't want to force you to think like me, obviously.

:up:

Cool. At least you agree with me that we still can learn interesting things in an informal context or 'Lounge' material. :grin:

I know what 'hanging out' in English means, but I did not get it in the context of posting threads here. Fine, I get it now.

Javi, you are more than capable of using google, online dictionaries to read the different meanings. — Amity

Yep, but I trust you more than Google and other online sites. When I interact with you, I am having a conversation with a native speaker. This is obviously better than Google.

Other more specific threads like javi2541997's - may well be characterised as 'hanging out' but blethering about pussy cats? Come on! — Amity

Hanging out? What does it mean? Sorry, you used too English slang that I hardly followed your comment.

I think you could have placed it under 'Philosophy of Art' without any objections. But who knows? Even that is debatable. I'll move this to 'Feedback' so as not to derail your thread! — Amity

Fine. Good idea. I still believe that it doesn't have philosophical content, but we can discuss the 'unbearable nostalgia' of Kundera in The Lounge, though. There are also good threads here.

...

This is not a 'corner time'. :sweat:

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'philosophical content' — Amity

I am not the one who wrote the rules of this forum. :sweat:

I fully consider poetry as a topic of philosophy. But, according to the rules, I think I would have to write the thread in a different manner. I wanted to share my astonishment with that quote of Kundera and share other poems with the rest. But maybe, it is not that philosophical. If I had tried to place the thread on the main page, I guess the moderators would have placed it in The Lounge, anyway.

Remember your words there?: — Amity

Yes, I do. I tried to give my opinion on poem meaning using haiku. I can't remember what came afterwards.

Sharing poems for their 'unbearable nostalgia' - I would argue that this does have 'philosophical content' and involve reflection and expressing thoughts about self, life and the world (philosophy). — Amity

I agree. Thank you for giving a chance to my thread in such a way. I really like to discuss nostalgia and melancholia, for instance. It is hard for me to distinguish both, and I think it is worth debating. I am also interested in shadows, colours, and night/day. I gave my best arguing in the 'Perception' thread and I learnt from other users. 

A poem that brings me nostalgic vibes (or maybe melancholia? Because it is something I will probably no longer live). Summer is ending.
 

Finally
the cicadas stopped shrilling—
summer gale.

―Yamaguchi Seishi. :sparkle:

Perhaps consider the 'unbearable nostalgia' from the perspective of ecology. — Amity

Beautiful approach. I know ecology and nature are also key elements for poetry. Haiku is a good example, for instance. Yet I said family is a key element because (as I interpreted both Kundera and Merwin) it seemed the core element of that 'unbearable nostalgia' in those poems. First, Agnes (the character of Kundera) felt the unbearable nostalgia because she went from the day she was a girl learning German to the day where she is a mature woman living in France. Life showed up to her like a sparkle. I understand this feeling gave her an 'unbearable' nostalgia.

On the other hand, the poem shared by @Paine of Merwin, seems to send a similar message. An adult person who is in a difficult relationship with his father, and misses old times when he was a child, and he didn't need to worry whether he visited his father or not.
 
But that's how I just interpret it. Poetry is infinite in its own interpretation. :sparkle:

Sorry, I couldn't make it! — Amity

No worries, Amity. :smile:

I hope you weren't drowning in sake sorrows? — Amity

I was, actually. There are periods of time where I feel more sensitive than others, although I am always pretty sensitive, honestly.

In audio, the former sounding better. I'm now feeling a sense of nostalgia but not the unbearable kind! — Amity

I agree, and as I also commented with Paine, I know it is difficult to approach Kundera's point. I also read other novels of his, and in these, he also used the expression 'unbearable' when he, as a narrator, talks about love, sex, art, dictatorships, etc. I think it is a very 'Kundera' thing. I have never read Czech poets, and he quoted a lot. It is another task for this autumn: reading Czech poets too.

Just as in Kundera's novel, I think being part of a reading/listening group selecting poems can be wonderful and enlightening. Thank you — Amity

It is, indeed! :heart:

Would a poetry thread not be better placed and appreciated under another main category? Philosophy of Art? Aesthetics?] — Amity

Before posting this thread, I asked myself to what category could have been placed. But, note that it is just a quote by Kundera in a book of his, and I just welcome everyone to share poems with that feeling. I mean, I guess it doesn't have as much philosophical content as the ones on the main page. So, I decided to place it in The Lounge.

The presence of the friend who judges him harshly but also lets him have his own way. — Paine

I didn't gaze at the presence of the friend that closely. I thought the poet was playing with time and everything was in his head. I mean, he plays with nostalgia of different moments of his dad and then with a conversation he had with his friend about why he didn't see his father.

Merwin himself is a contrast to the poem since much of his other work involves memory holding onto particular events and things as a way of treading water in one's 'now'. What is reflecting what? — Paine

What a magnificent question! I am very interested in Merwin now. Thanks for introducing me to his poetry. I want to read him in English this autumn. :smile:

I will think about Sikelianos. Is that different from Yeats thinking about naughty gods? — Paine

I think yes, he is different from Yeats. Even though Sikelianos is frequently compared to him, he [Sikelianos] seems to be more despairing and puzzled.

Another example of 'unbearable' nostalgia that may fit in Kundera's view of poetry. This one by Sikelianos:

Share
With her hair closely cropped up to the nape
Like Dorian Apollo’s, the girl lay on the narrow
Pallet, keeping her limbs stiffly frozen
Within a heavy cloud she could not escape...

Artemis emptied her quiver—every arrow
Shot through her body. And though very soon
She’d be no virgin, like cold honeycomb,
Her virgin thighs still kept her pleasure sealed...

As if to the arena, the youth came
Oiled with myrrh, and like a wrestler kneeled
To pin her down; and although he broke past

Her arms that she had thrust against his chest,
Only much later, with one cry, face to face,
Did they join lips, and out of their sweat, embrace... — Angelos Sikelianos.

Don't you feel nostalgia because a girl is evolving into a woman losing her virginity? Hmm. The poem speaks about a purity about to be lost.

Hey Paine! Thanks for sharing a poem. It is fine. I think reaching the 'unbearable' feeling, as Kundera says, is quite complex. We can even include pain inside unbearable, and we may get to a point where Kundera wanted to approach: gloom or heaviness of something.

he says I did not go
to see my parent very often you know
and I say yes I know — W.S. Merwin, Yesterday from Flower and Hand

Family is always a key aspect in poetry. It reminds me of Kundera, actually. The main character, Agnes, has a current emotional breakdown for the death of her parents. But I don't want to be off the poem. Yet I wanted to highlight how important the family is regarding poetry.

he says the last time I went to seem father
I say the last time I saw my father

he says the last time I saw my father
he was asking me about my life
how I was making out and he
went into the next room
to get something to give me — W.S. Merwin, Yesterday from Flower and Hand

He repeats three times, "the last time he saw his father." I can feel a heavy and unbearable feeling of anguish for not visiting a father. It seems like this neglect is choking him. He is suffering because he is aware that he abandoned a parent. 

I look out the window
my friend is older than I am
he says and I told my father it was so
and I got up and left him then
you know

though there was nowhere to go
and nothing I had to do — W.S. Merwin, Yesterday from Flower and Hand

Ambiguity? Well, he ended up visiting his father. Maybe we cannot ask him more than that. I feel an awkward situation in the room. The boy of the poem finally crosses the line and decides to visit his father, but since he is there, he doesn't know how to proceed, even with trifle conversations. These things take time.

Thanks @Paine a great poem. I felt an unbearable sorrow. Maybe we can get another approach: nostalgia because of the old times the boy spent with his father, but I think we lack some information to get this.

Beautiful rebetiko music, @Alkis Piskas :smile:

'Your Eyelashes Shine'

Your lashes shine,
Like the flowers in a valley,
Like the flowers in a valley,
Your lashes shine.

I have no idea what you mean by a "correct manner" to see reality. — jkop

I meant seeing reality in an objective way, because belief is subjective and we already discussed that it can lead me to error. Let's say I believe it is raining because it sounds like a splash on the ground, I hear thunders, etc. With the aim of being more sure about my belief that it is raining, I stick the TV on and the news says: It is raining heavily, so there is a big traffic jam in Madrid. What do I need more to not allow my beliefs to cheat me? The only correct manner to experience reality is using external factors.

But if you assume that you never see reality, only your own representation of it, well... that will inevitably lead you to doubt whether your manner of seeing reality is correct. — jkop

No, I am not assuming anything. I actually wonder if there is a possibility to see the representation of reality without being cheated by my own beliefs.

Immortality by Milan Kundera.

you experience something but believe it's something else. It's the belief that goes wrong, while the experience is a fact that arises under whatever conditions that satisfy it — jkop

So, because belief can lead to mistakes, I tend to have a distorted view of reality because what I believe when I experience rain is frequently wrong. But 'it rains' as a preposition is the truth. Therefore, the latter will help me see reality in a correct manner rather than through belief. Am I right, or am I missing something?

Logically, the belief is about the sentence. — jkop

But if they are separate, why is belief about the sentence?

For example, when I believe that it rains, I'm feeling confident about the truth of the sentence 'it rains'. The belief is representational, it can be true or false, unlike experiencing the rain, which is a causal sensory interaction with the rain, not sentences. — jkop

If experiencing the rain is a casual sensory interaction with the rain, my belief cannot be false. There are some elements that exist for themselves and we interact with them, like rain in your example. I couldn't be mistaken when I believe it is raining because I heard thunder or I became wet in the street. So, the sentence 'it is raining outside!' is necessarily true when it is actually raining. It works like an axiom, right? 

Otherwise, how can I experience the belief and the sentence separately?

I see! Thanks, good analysis. It is important to bring 'knowing' to this debate. I didn't think about it, honestly. But since you made a reference to it, I am now questioning myself about what I said previously about dreaming with deceased people. 
So, in order to believe that I dream of deceased relatives, I must first know that they are dead and that they are my relatives. It would be interesting to dream with a random, unknown person, and knowing he is dead later on, after dreaming. My mind would be dizzy from mixing 'knowing' ,belief and thinking.

Knowing is more fundamental than believing, believing is more fundamental that thinking and thinking is more fundamental than having an attitude. — RussellA

Do you think each of them is dependent on each other, or should we look at them individually?

Does it need to be seen to be believed? — Amity

This is a very good question. Even more, if we are debating and sharing thoughts about belief and reality. I met some realists in this forum who only give reliability to those things that are seen. Well, I have a strong belief that ghosts exist, although I never saw any. But whenever I see a person who has already passed away in my dreams, I say I saw a ghost while dreaming. The reality and belief of some aspects of our lives where imagination, dream-like visions, or hallucinations are part of them make us sceptics.
But sometimes the rabbit doesn't come out of the hat. Yet I have a strong belief it will come out the next time. :smile:

What you believe may indeed be your reality, but it's possible to become unstuck. — Janus

Unstuck? Do you mean being stuck in the centre of belief and reality, or just in one of those two?

@Lionino

Polla, rabo, picha, pipa, chota, pito, nabo, miembro, ganso, riata, pija, churro, pajarito, soldado, capuchón, fresa, sable, garfio, manguera, salchicha, pepino, lanza, culebra, cipote, pilila, poronga, manubrio, pistola, cipote.

The different terms for saying dick in Spanish. Pick your favourite. :grin:

OK, mate. I now understand why you always type and posy with such anger. Living in a country that you don't like is screwed, and maybe you are frustrated every time. Reading your posts, it is more an issue regarding your attitude than the existence of NZ.

This is exactly whataboutism. — AmadeusD

It isn't. You complained about the public transport in NZ. I agree the public services of every country have pros and cons, and no one is perfect. But I stated that you have public transport, at least. There are citizens who don't know what it is like to take a bus and go to another city. You are complaining about stuff from developed and rich countries. "Ohhhh, the train of Auckland is horrendous," but you have malls, shops, streets, water, etc. Again, don't be ungrateful, mate. NZ is providing you with everything you need. Just because it is a country that cares for people and doesn't allow you to use excessively the car, doesn't mean it is the "worst" country in the world.

Ireland, Italy, USA(parts thereof), Canada (parts thereof), Japan (parts thereof), Hong Kong, and many others. — AmadeusD

Only developed and rich nations. :lol: I will not see the crank trying to live in Andalucía, Cuba, Venezuela, or Morocco. Nah, everything is messed up in NZ but no way I would raise my kids in Seville.

Yes. Yes I can. — AmadeusD

No, no. You can't. Hating the country where you live is dumb.

In what sense did he mean 'aware' - fully conscious of the world around? — Amity

Good question.

According to Murakami, the third room is something secret. He admitted that the subconscious can often be unknown. He likes to explore this specific room in most of his novels, but I never thought he actually believed in the existence of this room. He couldn't explain with proper words what it feels like to be in the third room, but he claims that it exists, and he wonders if everything in the room exists as well, or if it is a hallucination. It was interesting to me to perceive that while he wished to explore this room, he also hesitated.
Adding to Murakami's point, I believe dreams and nightmares are real, although this only occurs when I am asleep. I assure you that while dreaming, I experienced full consciousness and encountered individuals and locations that are easy to know and remember. But every time I woke up, I realised it was all a dream, no matter how genuine it appeared. Perhaps Murakami refers to the third room as a mix of both. A more continuous experience where dreams and awakened moments are more plausible.

How can we know we are there? –In the room where dreams and life are merged– and could it be possible to know when we enter and when we leave the room?

Seeing as how you're here, javi, good to see ya' - I wonder if you have any thoughts on 'metaphysical imagination'. What it means to you? Or anything else you'd care to add or comment on...the surreal wonder of language/s? Where your creative ideas stem from... — Amity

It's good to see you too, Amity. Thanks for allowing me to share my ideas.

Hmm. It is clearly a tough philosophical topic. I guess it can be crossed with science or neurological facts. So, if you don't really mind—or Jack, since this is his thread—I would like to share my opinion, quoting and understanding Haruki Murakami.

Murakami is an excellent novelist. He came to Spain because he was awarded a prize for literature. Debating with some fans, he stated: I think there is in our consciousness a hidden room. In this room, it is where our real selves live and create art. Sometimes it is difficult to enter it; others leave it. I imagine this room as dark or poorly lit, like a train station at night or a pit.

After reading the words by Murakami, I had a deep thought about myself. It is true that there could be a hidden room for our dreams, imagination, creative process, etc. But I didn't get why Murakami stated that this door is 'hidden' (hidden from who or what?). What I learnt is that consciousness could hold a secret (rather than hidden) location where our ideas flourish. I agree with Murakami that it is difficult to join these locations. Well, what he actually said is that it is difficult to be aware when we are in our creative room, hidden from the rest.

A few months later, I came to the conclusion that there could be three rooms for surreal or real ideas, dreams, etc. It is more normal to have a single tangible room. A second room where the tangible and unreal could be blurred (our dreams), and a third door, the one Murakami mentioned as the source of our creative thoughts, apparently.

I wonder if there is someone about who can explain how 'accepted answer' works? God, are you there? — Amity

I don't want to derail this very interesting OP but after reading your question, I believe I can help you, Amity.

My first OP in this forum was a "question" because I didn't know how categories worked then! :smile:
As much as I recall, once the question is posted, it is needed to select an answer from the users to keep the thread going on. A message appeared in the bottom saying (my memory is not very precise in this case, and maybe I am wrong): 'Please select an answer or change the topic to another category.' 

I can't remember if I was the one who did it, or as Jack points out, it is the software that does the selection, actually.

However, I do not believe that 'accepted answer' follows a pattern of quality.

If we talk about beautiful book covers, I personally think that the editors of Murakami's novels have always done a very nice job. Right, @praxis ?

I also hate that I pretty much have to have one because it feels like another form of rent: just an endless money pit that depreciates and yet you have to maintain it in order to get to work. — Moliere

Ditto. I blame marketing and television for their brainwashing techniques to force people to buy cars, even if they are very young. There is the risk of them dying in a car crash because they are immature to use a car, but automobile manufacturers don't seem to really care. I even heard once that 'public transport is for poor people, but owning a car represents wealth.' If ever someone believes such a stupid spot, there is a real problem with society.

I can't recall seeing any Metro advertisements, for example. It's safer, better, electric, and compact. Television has had a negative impact on public transport perception. The level of interest shown by the motor industry in all of this is scary!

@T Clark

Hello Clarky, I bring another film this Saturday. This time, I would like to recommend you a 'terror' film. It is from Argentina but subtitles will always be available, obviously. It is called When Evil Lurks in English.

The film's plot takes place in a rural part of Argentina, and there is sorrow because one of the residents is 'witched'. It is interesting how the director tells the story using references to Satanic themes. I wasn't very aware of this world until I saw the film yesterday. I think it is OK to watch it. However, I must warn you that some scenes are uncomfortable for our eyes...

Kenzaburo Oé. Anagrama.





The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle. Haruki Murakami. Círculo de Lectores.

The city Amadeus complains about in fact took inspiration from Seville’s “tactical urbanism” approach to start rolling out a rough and ready cycleway network in 2015. — apokrisis

Yes, Seville has done a great job over the past few years. Madrid also funded a project to switch the city into a more walkable and cycling mode. It was not easy in the beginning, because both cities were designed to hold public buildings and neighbours near them. Our city planners didn't even consider the fact of using bikes, but at least Madrid always had done a good effort regarding trains.

Aside from major cities and Basque country, there are many places that lack access to basic, quality transport. It's a shame. Amadeus complained about New Zealand public transport, but how many people in Teruel or Jaén would give for some of it!

I hate New Zealand. It's an awful country in almost all ways except landscape. You wont get me to care. — AmadeusD

Don't be ungrateful to the country that allows you to reside there. I dislike this kind of behaviour and attitude. It is OK to assume that every country has pros and cons, but mate, you cannot have that animosity with New Zealand. Fine, I have never been there. But I guess it is a developed nation in every sense. Do your kids feel insecure when they come back from school, for example? Is the system so corrupt that it is impossible to manage things with public administration?

You say that the public transport of NZ is a 'laughing stock'. Well, I invite you to come here and go to Extremadura or Jaén where there are no trains. The bus service is good but slow, and the trips to Madrid take more than they should.

Every rich and developed nation should have an acceptable train and bus system. Cars are a trap to make people feel the fallacy of 'freedom' because they are not sharing space with others. This is very stupid. I am not forced to buy a car, but it is clear that my country is forced to make public transport possible. Do you get it?

So, don't be ungrateful to NZ. I am sure this wonderful country provides you with all of the public services you and your family require.

Hello again Tiff! It has been a while! I hope you are doing well. Your mother needs your company, and it is understandable. I think you both need to be together. There are periods in life that only our parents support us. Since you already lost your dad—I am sorry for this—it is time to stay with your mother before it is too late.

So, the purpose of this thread is to submit memes, not to learn how to use 'postimages.org'. :snicker:

PS: I realize now that the melodramatic letter was probably not written by a boomer, because this type of virtue-signaling self-flagelation is not in their nature. — Tzeentch

The letter was written by Stuart Capstick. He seems to be pretty 'boomer', actually. https://uk.linkedin.com/in/stuart-capstick-81584260

How do you tell that you are experiencing red? — Banno

The moment I hand you a red pen, of course. :snicker: More than 20 pages discussing about this. Ea! Philosophers enjoy twisting basic trifling matters!

"the colour red" is not anything but the experience of Red — AmadeusD

Therefore, a blind (and colourblind) person would not experience red in their lives. Yet we made symbols or writing systems to help them understand what is red. Hmm... colours are tiresome often.