By contrast, according to the tradition of radical social constructionism, what you assume as universal, objective or common knowledge belongs to a multiplicity of competing traditions. So it is not a question of bad intent , but a different system of intelligible within which the other believes themselves to be as justified from a moral perspective as you feel. — Joshs

I think this formulation works for me reasonably well. Over the years, in jail and outside, I have met a lot of people conveniently called 'bad'. This to me seems a metaphysical or theological statement. What I generally see is people behaving in a way which makes sense to them, given experiences and the way the world seems to work to them.

I'm not sure what it is that moves a person to share observations and speculations regarding God, but I doubt that doing so has ever succeeded in accomplishing anything except, in some cases, convincing someone to accept a belief in a particular kind God or fostering disagreement over whether God exists or if God does exist, what God is in that case. — conceive

Sounds about right.

As an example of phenomenological truth, Genesis says that humans don’t live in paradise, that we don’t live in paradise due to our own actions, that men have to eat by working, that women have pains in childbirth, and they have to look to their husbands. Those things are obviously true to anyone who has lived as a human. The stories used to explain how that came about are not literally true, but the end result does not differ at all from the common human experience, or else it would not have been considered such a meaningful story for so long.

I would highly recommend looking at Jordan Peterson’s Biblical lectures to see a modern take on Biblical wisdom. — Brendan Golledge

I can make little substantive sense out of anything much Peterson says - he frequently seems incoherent. But perhaps it's because I'm not really looking for a replacement Joseph Campbell figure.

Looking at your take on Genesis - I don't see what has been accomplished. Stories used to 'explain' things, whether they are Aesop or Ezra, are still just stories used to explain things. So? Most people today, particularly Christians, seem to be pretty ignorant of the Bible and the stories. Do these tales really make up the fabric of our shared culture, or is this just the prattling of certain writers and academics?

One reading of Genesis (and what follows) might be less charitable. God is petulant, ego maniacal goon. He seems incapable of getting anything right, his creation continually fucks up and breaks things and God's limited solution seems to be retribution and murder. Perhaps this tells us that our ability to conceptualise deities often reflects humanity's worst characteristics. I wonder how we can know when it is good?

You don't seem to be particularly convinced there is a god. That's probably a healthy thing. Are you, as they say, wrestling with faith?

There's a great 2010 book on the question of culture's obsession with authenticity called The Authenticity Hoax by Andrew Potter. By elevate I simply mean to privilege - people venerate and privilege the things they consider to be authentic and eschew that which they consider to be mass-marketed pap.

Then why can't we express it in the quality of art and literature those other Romantics? — Vera Mont

I don't see why we would. Every era has its own spin on things.

This is an era which elevates the subjective and the 'authentic' and feelings and nature in quite similar ways. It don't matter that Game of Thrones, Marvel or Star Wars now stand in for great poetry or novels.

I call it maudlin commercial sentimentality. — Vera Mont

Yep - I think this is what romanticism looks like when it has collided with marketing and post-modernism. :wink:

People seem to have rejected reason, perspective, any sense of proportion in favour of raw, undisciplined emotionalism. — Vera Mont

Agree, and this is one of the key characteristics of Romanticism.

Why do you think this happens? Is it confined to a related group of cultures or is it world-wide?
Do you do this yourself - follow the procession on screen, or leave flowers and messages at the site?
What do you think about the practice?
How do you feel about it? — Vera Mont

I found the public grief over the empty Princess Diana absurd. This was the first time I was aware of this kind of OTT phenomenon. I would probably pop it under the category of public hysteria or a type of social virus. And unsurprisingly there was only a modest reaction to her death after the first anniversary.

From a more banal perspective, I tend to think that we've been living in a new age of romanticism, with cults of personality and public displays of success/celebration/grief/loss/rage a tawdry aspect of a particular urgency to share personal stories and feelings with the rest of the world. The talk show (Donahue, Oprah, Dr Phil, et al) probably helped to establish the model. The internet, of course, allows us all to wallow in bubbles of orgiastic, self-regarding paroxysms of anger or grief.

Good points. There seems to be a hierarchy of duty. How does one determine which one should override the other?

Some say that the people might need to rise up in the United States because we are increasingly having to choose between fascism and neoliberalism - all the while the oligarchs line their pockets. — ToothyMaw

I don't think neo-liberalism is incompatible with fascism. Not enough of a choice there for me.

I will define duty as: a feeling of obligation brought about by expectation that is irreducible; it exists only as a meta-construction - as recursive and a sum of its parts - and yet it is a very basic concept understood by pretty much everybody. — ToothyMaw

I can't make much sense out of your definition of duty. The 'intuition that we ought to do a particular thing' perhaps? Of course duty is value free and it can be attached to any kind of person or action.

everyone craves duty — ToothyMaw

How can you demonstrate that everyone craves duty? Is duty not just a sublimation for purpose? Everyone, perhaps, craves purpose?

The best leaders know that duty begets duty. — ToothyMaw

Not sure what that means. Can you provide an example of a leader doing such?

I'm referring to the only experience we can talk about with some authority - the mortal life.

I don't think anyone knows what the allegory of heaven means exactly. Hence my latter point.

If God is indeed a king with legions at his command why would he allow his son to mistreated? Why would christ allow himself and his devoted followers to be tortured and murdered? it is a strange salvation that involves the obliteration of the flesh for the sake of the something sacred like the soul. — Average

Suffering is kind of the point of most forms of Christianity, isn't it?

1 Peter 4:12-13 (NIV):

Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

The Bible is an anthology, a series of allegories, dozens of separate books, written across a period of well over 1000 years, it is interpreted in multiple ways and there are thousands of Christian sects and denominations today, with their own preferred understanding of scripture. How could we narrow it down to something like the plot of a movie?

For Americans, I don't think Biden will do much for Americans who are not wealthy because he himself belongs to the elite group. For Trump, he at least cares for the numbers and statistics such as inflation and unemployment rate and want them to look good. Isn't this the reason why Trump has so many supporters? — Hailey

No, I think most of us know this is wrong. Trump doesn't appear to give a shit about anything but getting elected and he knows his base is comprised of many working people, so he needs to say things that seem pro worker. But can you name substantive initiatives that he delivered?

Biden, may have failed in many respects, but has actually been seen by many as pro-worker, despite being an elderly, privileged white guy.

I noticed this from a well known American Labor newspaper.

https://labortribune.com/30-things-biden-has-done-to-help-workers/

:up:
:up:
:up:
:up:

I certainly agree that deep down Biden is a more formidable foe to oppsing countries to the US. — Hailey

I don't see that. I am referring to his work as a politician, doing the work of a politician - infrastructure, clean energy, mental health, healthcare - being able to talk about policy and implementation of programs, not just lame point scoring. But this is getting dull, I'm not an American, so it's not my world. :wink:

Guess what's happening here? :cool: — jgill

Surely not...

Or perhaps I'm just gullible to Trump's speeches and interviews where he appears to be more sensible and competent than Baiden. — Hailey

That's interesting, I can't imagine Trump ever appearing more sensible or competent than Biden. I'm not an American, so the matter is largely academic. Trump feels more like a stand up comedian than a politician and I can see how some people might be drawn to the spectacle.

But I was simply relating what I thought might be an answer to the question by ↪schopenhauer1 — jgill

Fair enough.

Hint: He made an attempt to stop illegal immigration along the southern border. He made an attempt to influence NATO members to pay more their share. He met with tyrants to try to reduce tensions. . . .. feel free to ridicule. — jgill

OK. Are you saying that there is a positive and effective side to Trump's Presidency, or just that these items listed are also part of the popular perception - at the less wacky end of things?

I imagine that for some Chinese, Trump is popular because he promises to drag America down. I've met a number of hard core Marxists who hope he'll get in because they think it will lead to a system breakdown and a revolution.

That is to say, party-ism truly "trumps" ideas of fairness. Democracies must be set up with respect for the game above all else. But here's the even more intriguing part of this mess. It's not just that Trump is flouting the rules of the game. It is the willingness of those who support the cult of personality to the point where, they don' even recognize it as flouting the rules. They will say, "he didn't really do anything wrong", or even worse, equivocate and say, "he is doing no worse than X, Y, Z politician". And thus, this political gaslighting is the new narrative. — schopenhauer1

I think this is right.

It's the otherwise well-tempered folks that would vote for him that is the riddle to be solved. — schopenhauer1

This is a more hair-raising idea and I agree, that's some riddle.

The institutions that have tasked themselves with informing the public have failed in that regard. — NOS4A2

I know hating the media is a popular sport amongst people, right or left-wing. No one ever seems satisfied that the media properly represents their interests and the media is always too right, or too left, or too partisan, too phony, or too corporate... Which is why people seem to pick the media outlet (in the old days, the newspaper/magazine) which best reflects their values and intellectual capacity. I'm not in a position to analyze the media landscape and I consume very little journalism. It mostly bores me, for one thing.

Do you remember any of the parallels he drew? — Fooloso4

The discussion comes around halfway through this. Both men also see movies like The Matrix, Dark City, Blade Runner as belonging to a tradition dealing in gnostic themes. Our reality being the fraught product of a demiurge and that there is 'special knowledge' available to those who want to know the truth.

f you look at a lot of the QAnon stuff, there is this theme of "a storm is coming" with Trump returning to destroy the forces of evil in a sort of political apocalypse. It's all couched in very mythic language with Trump being seen as a savior which ties right in with evangelicals' belief that Trump is appointed by God. The other side of the coin is the apathy, disinterest or sheer mental laziness in not fact-checking anything. If it's anti-Trump they reject it, and if it's pro-Trump or against his enemies, they accept it. — GRWelsh

Yes, a fair depiction. I noticed that academic and theologian David Bentley Hart, in a conversation with Peter O'Leary, calls this a modern reworking/revival of Gnostic mythos.

(e.g. Rupert Murdoch media properties have made tens of billions (USD) on shamelessly spewing bullshit in the US & UK, for instance, since the Reagan-Thatcher era that has helped to normalize 'populist cynicism'.) — 180 Proof

Yep. No question. Here too (Murdoch's Sky News).

Seditionist-Traitor-Rapist1 is a stubbornly persistent symptom that, IMO, is struggling to metastasize nationally, maybe even globally. Is that alarmist hyperbole? :mask: — 180 Proof

I hear you.

Mine was more general. It's the sense in which Trump has jaded the entire political scene - the expecation that 'all politicians are liars anyway' (so what does it matter if Trump lies?), who's to say what is true, all the instutitions of government are basically malignant, the whole system is rotten so let's destroy it - those kinds of cynical tropes. — Wayfarer

I got ya. Fair call.

In 1989 I was living in Washington, DC when I'd found Peter Sloterdijk's ominous Critique of Cynical Reason — 180 Proof

That looks exceptionally interesting and vast. I guess I hadn't factored in the idea of cynicism as the era's worldview, a kind of coping mechanism against a world of swirling change and uncertainty. I wonder if this is a different account of cynicism than @wayfarer had in mind? I generally think of cynics as passionless, passive and incredulous of human decency. Tump voters, such as I understand them, seem engaged, passionate and credulous. You understand this stuff well; thoughts?

Apathy in respect of the facts - like, they don't care what he's been shown to have done, they won't watch or read the reports, and if they do, they will re- interpret them to suit their narrative — Wayfarer

I hear you but I suspect they are unable to do differently and are part of a faith-based value system, not unlike the Catholic Church in its prime.

This is what makes the Trump candidacy (should it be realised) so utterly malignant - the fact that he can rely on the apathy and cynicism of his supporters to gain ground by wholly illegitimate means. — Wayfarer

Reasonable questions but is it apathy and cynicism from supporters? Or do you think many of them accept the Trump narrative as true believers in a war against a corrupt 'business as usual' political process? If this phenomenon operates similarly to a cult, then it's a highly complex situation.

As you would imagine, there's a good deal of money to be made out of the UFO speaking/writing circuit. I've watched Ross's various 'documentaries' he is careful, but it's clear he has an audience in mind and seems to have re-launched a flagging career. But some of his research is intriguing.

Nevertheless I am interested in the claims. There are several high profile whistle blowers - the other notable one is Luis Elizondo - Coulthart has used him too.

Presumably, they can kind of materialise or de-materialise. — Wayfarer

I think this is becoming accepted in the 'lore' now. And it goes back to earlier accounts. A famous one I have a slight connection to is Westall, which also seemed to feature 'vanishing and 'reappearing' back in 1966.

I guess it’s for the sake of self introspection which can yield useful knowledge about oneself. — simplyG

Interesting. I hear this often and I think what you say is fair - but I just can't think of a single example of where I have yielded useful knowledge about myself in any such process.

To me it strikes as unhealthy as individuals should have a healthy level of curiosity of what is happening outside their little world. — simplyG

I guess we have to now because of the global effects of untrammelled capitalism and environmental degradation. But it wasn't that long ago what was happening in the next village didn't much matter. I think it is ok to only be aware of your own bubble, as long as this doesn't cause harm to others. The fundamentalist Christian, Fox News watching bubble is not so good.

Roughly 60% of the country thinks this guy is a crook and should stand trial before the election. — Mikie

But what percentage of these will vote?

I am somewhat reassured by what @Wayfarer and @180 Proof are saying. I have no connections to America and don't follow politics, nor do I understand the priorities of voters there or here in Australia. I was surprised that Trump's popular vote actually went up in 2020, despite the previous 4 years, so I'm prepared for anything.

If an advanced intelligence that has figured it all out tried to explain it to us, could we understand the explanation? Or at least get the gist of it? — RogueAI

I doubt it, but how could we know? I did see an interview with (I think) Neil deGrasse Tyson and Richard Dawkins talking about potential alien intelligence with them suggesting that the difference between us and aliens might be comparable to the difference between us and chimpanzees. I guess it all hinges upon whether useful communication would even be possible between an advanced species and us.

There are countries that raise their people to be dumb and deprieve their ability to be skeptical so that their rule can be secured. — Hailey

What countries do you have in mind and can you provide an example?

I don’t buy any of that conspiracy theory stuff. Governments can barely organise the quotidian things they’re supposed to organise, let alone conspiracies to deceive. — Wayfarer

Yep. That's about it.

You put that very well.

I don't think it's the government. We are much more socialized by our families, communities, schools, jobs, TV, the internet. — T Clark

Agree.

Not trusting government to the point of paranoia is a popular culture trope and a bit convenient.

how do we know what to believe in? — Hailey

You can ask that question about anything - religion, media, science, universities, advertising, knowledge in general...

You really need to take things matter by matter and work through them with the information available. Perhaps you can name an issue that you are struggling to get a grip on?

Perhaps reality can only be accepted once one has attained sufficient enlightenments. — Kevin Tan

I'm not sure what you mean by the word 'reality'.

:up:

I undertand.

Whenever I tell someone that I take those, I perceive that they think I take them for pleasure — javi2541997

Sometimes people need medication. We would not take this view with a diabetic who needs regular insulin medication.

They would have to be able to traverse the distances involved in some way other than literally travelling from there to here - something which would appear to us as supernatural, but which would in reality be a form of science unknown and probably inconceivable to humans. — Wayfarer

No question. I think we tend to set odd limits on our speculative thinking when it comes to potential alien technology. I keep hearing people talking about human understandings of time and space as if these would necessarily apply to an advanced civilisation.

But I wonder if one of the ways of facing unhappiness is to accept it — javi2541997

Yes. I think the default setting for most emotional states is to accept it - happy or not. We often assume how we feel is normal. We may not even be certain what it is we are feeling. Nevertheless, off we go, looking for distractions.

I take everyday Bromazepam and CBD — javi2541997

I wasn't referring to prescribed medication under treatment. I was thinking about self-medicating indiscriminately with booze and other substances.

I'm not entirely sure what you are asking or trying to communicate. Is it what reasons people might have to pursue philosophical enquiry?

But why philosophy anyway ? If a person is happy who needs it ? It’s often recognised that life is suffering and ignorance is bliss but are these just convenient aphorisms or is the truth somewhere in between? — simplyG

Philosophy might be many things, but, whether a person is happy or unhappy, it often involves examining beliefs and presuppositions to determine whether they are true or justified.

Philosophy is only going to appeal to a percentage of people who have any reason to be interested in the subject. People have all sorts of ways to manage unhappiness; substance use, consumerism, hobbies, travel and other distractions, not philosophy so much. For some, religion may play a role.

From this perspective it appears that reality in this day and age (especially with social media involved) is a type of social bubble which is self created by the choices of the individual — simplyG

I remember people complaining about others living in bubbles well before the internet. There's always been the issue of people inhabiting a class or social group which has its own rules and values and is often ignorant of the wider world. In the days of newspapers, we often knew what bubble people belonged to by what paper/magazine they had delivered.