• Art48
    480
    Premise: I am not what I am aware of; those are objects of awareness. Rather, I am awareness itself.

    Let’s unpack that. Of what am I aware? Of physical sensations (sight, sound, smell, touch, taste) along with emotions and thoughts. Seven types of sensations: five related to the (purported) external world, and the emotions and thoughts that constitute our inner world.

    Sensations are objects of awareness—they are what we are aware of. More importantly, that is all we are directly aware of. I can be 100% certain I see a color or feel a pain. I can be 100% I have the sensation of seeing water. Those sensations may occur when I’m awake or when I’m dreaming. The sensations exist; the purported matter behind them may or may not.

    We are only directly and certainly aware of sensations. Thus, matter is a theoretical construct. Matter is an idea I use to understand sensation. What we call a coffee mug, for instance, is a bundle of visual and tactile sensations. If I hold the (purported) coffee mug, I feel tactile sensations. And that’s all I directly and certainly experience. The coffee mug existing as a material thing is an idea. If I dream that I’m drinking a cup of coffee, all the sensations exist, but the material object we call a cup does not. Similarly, in the normal waking state, all the sensations are there, but the material object we call a cup may or may not exist. Representative realism says the cup exists externally as a material object. Berkeley’s idealism says only the sensations exist. I say maybe the cup exists externally; maybe not. I don’t know. I know it exists as an idea which explains my sensation. Beyond that, I cannot say.

    Although the argument and conclusion may seem shocking, it occurs regularly in philosophy. Descartes’ evil demon; the brain in a vat; the Matrix movie; the universe as a computer simulation; the holographic universe—all question or deny an external world consisting of matter.

    As an aside, I’ll point out that the argument remains essentially unchanged even if we add sensations (intuition or ESP, for example) or subdivide a sensation (for example, divide thought into creative thought, as when writing a novel, and logical insight, as when following a mathematical proof).

    But suppose the external world of matter does exist, just as we think of it does when not reflecting philosophically. It’s a world of people, buildings, trees, and highways. Which is a world of molecules, which, in turn, is a world of atoms, etc. We currently reach bottom when we get to the General Theory of Relativity and the Standard Model. Even the purported external material world, when we look deeply enough, seems to evaporate in a mist of mathematical abstraction.

    Where is that nice, solid external material world? That world that seems so real and stable until we think about it a bit? “Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.” Nursery rhyme? Or deep philosophical insight? Or a bit of both?

    All I can be certain about is my awareness and my physical, emotional, and mental sensations. The external world is probably there. For day-to-day purposes, I assume that is it. But awareness and sensation are all that I know with certainty exist. To paraphrase Descartes: I am aware of sensation; therefore, I know I exist.

    But sensations constantly change. My thoughts and emotions can change in a few minutes. My body changes more slowly, but changes nonetheless. It appears that I—my deepest enduring I, the I that has always been here, my indisputable self—is awareness.

    I can speak of my sensations as something I possess; the phrases “my body,” “my feelings,” “my thoughts” make sense. The phrase “my awareness” does not make sense, because awareness is not something I have. It’s not a possession. Rather, it’s what I am. It is me and I am it. I usually think of myself as a body existing in an external world of matter. Which is fine in the day-to-day world. It works. There’s a moving bus, and I’d better not step in front of it or my body may be injured. “I” may be injured. But in a stricter sense, if we require the I to be enduring, then it appears awareness, consciousness, is the only possible candidate. The body is something I possess; not something I am. More exactly, the body is an idea which represents certain of my physical sensations. The sensations exist; the body is an idea which makes sense of them.

    That is the case for the premise “I am not what I am aware of; those are objects of awareness. Rather, I am awareness itself.“ But even if it’s true, so what?

    The answer depends on the reader. One person may find the argument silly or irreverent and dismiss it from mind. I find reflecting on it somehow peaceful and reassuring. Now and then there’s a hint of fullness, of the present moment being complete and adequate. Doubts and worries fade. At its height, there’s the paradoxical feeling of “I’ve never felt better about living” coupled with “If I was going to die the next minute, it wouldn’t matter one bit.” Fullness. Not a static fulness. Rather, an effervescent fullness. Existence somehow feels like it’s humming or ringing, like it’s being continually renewed and recreated, like a water fountain’s spray is continually recreated moment to moment by the water’s movement.

    At a height beyond what I’ve experienced lies an ecstasy which the mystics describe as supreme, surpassing anything imaginable. “It shines with the brightness of 10,000 suns.” Critics say the mystics’ ecstasies have a sexual element; some go so far as to describe the ecstasies as the result of suppressed sexuality. I believe there’s a fundamental difference. Belief in material bodies existing in an external material world seems prerequisite for sexuality. In sexual experience, the body is experienced as real. Can the ecstasy of someone who clearly realizes that they consist of awareness, along with a constantly changing stream of physical, emotional, and mental sensations, be genuinely sexual? Perhaps not. Perhaps the ecstasy of the mystic can be described as sexual ecstasy without the sex. It sounds paradoxical. But much that the mystics say is paradoxical. Why? Critics say because the mystics are saying nonsense. Others say it’s because the mystics are trying to describe a reality for which words fail.

    The above argument is my own thoughts, but it does owe a debt to Advaita Vedanta, as presented on YouTube by Swami Sarvapriyananda of the Vedanta Society of New York.
  • Patterner
    1.1k
    I agree with most of your post. Yes, maybe real, maybe not. But, as you say, don't step in front of a bus. "If you can't tell the difference, what difference does it make?"


    At a height beyond what I’ve experienced lies an ecstasy which the mystics describe as supreme, surpassing anything imaginable. “It shines with the brightness of 10,000 suns.” Critics say the mystics’ ecstasies have a sexual element; some go so far as to describe the ecstasies as the result of suppressed sexuality. I believe there’s a fundamental difference. Belief in material bodies existing in an external material world seems prerequisite for sexuality. In sexual experience, the body is experienced as real. Can the ecstasy of someone who clearly realizes that they consist of awareness, along with a constantly changing stream of physical, emotional, and mental sensations, be genuinely sexual? Perhaps not. Perhaps the ecstasy of the mystic can be described as sexual ecstasy without the sex. It sounds paradoxical. But much that the mystics say is paradoxical. Why? Critics say because the mystics are saying nonsense. Others say it’s because the mystics are trying to describe a reality for which words fail.Art48
    This paragraph is a different topic, which I have no experience in, so I won't speculate.
  • Art48
    480
    This paragraph is a different topic, which I have no experience in, so I won't speculate.Patterner
    It goes beyond what I've personally experience, too.
  • Wayfarer
    22.8k
    That is the case for the premise “I am not what I am aware of; those are objects of awareness. Rather, I am awareness itself.“ But even if it’s true, so what?Art48

    I'm of a very similar view, probably due to my youthful exposure to Advaita Vedanta and other schools of Asian philosophy. But over the many years since, I've come to realise that it can easily be a shimmering mirage, the proverbial pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Why? Because in their original context such doctrines and teachings were part of an integrated spiritual culture. There were ways of approaching these teachings, through association with teachers and spiritual movements. Plus the all-important aspect of sādhanā, spiritual discipline, which is how the transformative understanding of the nature of the psyche (mind or soul) is acquired. When elements of these traditions are extracted from that cultural milieu and presented in books or through talks, that context may not come across, and without it, they loose their meaning, or are easily misunderstood. They're also easily exploited, as the proverbial pot of gold is thought to be the solution to all life's problems, which the unscrupulous can (and often do) exploit to bilk the credulous.

    None of this implies disrespect of the actual teachings nor of those who propogate them, just to point out that there's more to it than hearing the catch-phrases, 'I am That' or reading the philosophy. To penetrate the meaning of it, requires insight into the way the psyche is structured according to its conditioning and how it reflexively identifies with the objective and physical domain. That is why all such teachings were originally renunciate in nature, they were propagated by renunciate teachers who lived for the most part lives of extreme austerity. The well-known Vedantic sage Ramana Maharishi was so completely indifferent to his own body that he would have starved to death had not nearby villagers noticed him and started to provide him with nourishment.

    I don't want to over-state that, I think it's quite possible to learn and benefit from Vedanta philosophy in modern culture, but reading about it or understanding on a verbal level is only one part of the picture - as I'm sure the Vedanta Society itself would say, if one were to attend their talks. Such teachings really are 'philosophy as a way of life'. Contemporary culture is generally lacking in that kind of understanding and has no way of making sense of its claims, but on the positive side, at least it provides a social framework within which they can be taught and practiced.

    (Incidentally, thanks for the reminder about Vedanta Society. I knew they existed, but just now checked their site, and Swami Sarvapriyananda is indeed a wonderful speaker.)
  • 0 thru 9
    1.5k
    db4d6d19c253d87e5cd7a48a09347795.png

    Each person has a sleeping volcano of energy at the base of their spine.
    To open it so it flows upward through the different aspects of our being (survival, sexual, social, compassion, wisdom, etc) is both possible and a mystery.
    It is the flow of energy, thus will not be directly observable under a microscope or such.
    This is within all, not just Hindus or meditators.
    Dare we release the volcano and become pure energy?
  • Art48
    480
    Because in their original context such doctrines and teachings were part of an integrated spiritual culture.Wayfarer
    I have the eclectic attitude that if something is true, then it's true regardless of context. If natives believe the bark of a certain tree can cure headaches and have folk beliefs about why the tree does so, that doesn't prevent scientists from extracting the active ingredient and synthesizing it as aspirin.
  • Banno
    25.3k
    I am awareness itself.Art48
    A human is so much more than that. Being aware is so passive.
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    A human is so much more than that. Being aware is so passive.Banno

    Yeah. Besides, I'm generally not all that impressed with human awareness. It's pretty hit and miss.
  • Wayfarer
    22.8k
    I have the eclectic attitude that if something is true, then it's true regardless of context. If natives believe the bark of a certain tree can cure headaches and have folk beliefs about why the tree does so, that doesn't prevent scientists from extracting the active ingredient and synthesizing it as aspirin.Art48

    There are other factors involved in this case, and a bigger margin of error.
  • Patterner
    1.1k
    A human is so much more than that. Being aware is so passive.
    — Banno

    Yeah. Besides, I'm generally not all that impressed with human awareness. It's pretty hit and miss.
    Tom Storm
    What alternative impresses you more?
  • NOS4A2
    9.3k


    Saying that one can feel tactile sensations is a bit like saying that one can feel feelings or sense sensations. It’s a kind of question-begging. It appears to be a common move among species of idealisms, for some reason.

    It consists in erasing the object (the coffee mug), duplicating the verb or some other aspect of the subject, reifying it, disguising it with equivocation, and placing it into the object position. With this the idealist can avoid the perils of grammar which reveal he never has an object in his predicate.
  • Banno
    25.3k
    What alternative impresses you more?Patterner
    It's not that clear to me what the OP is seeking. But I'll take this as my starting point:
    What we call a coffee mug, for instance, is a bundle of visual and tactile sensations.Art48
    I choose the coffee mug I want from the several in the draw, I put it on the bench, make the coffee and then pour the coffee into the mug. I carry the mug out to my cahir, place it in the coffee table next to me. i wait for it's contents to cool somewhat, a preference acquired from teaching. Then I will hold it and sip, slowly. Later I will carry it out to the dish washer, place it on the middle shelf. After cleaning I return it to the draw.

    While these steps involve sensation, it's clear that the coffee mug is different to the draw, to the saucepan in which I make the coffee, to the bench and the table, and to the dish washer. Further there is more to each than how they look and feel; there is a profound difference between what I do with each. Further still, that the mug is a mug and not a cup or a spoon or a glass concerns what is done with it. Consider the distinction between a drinking cup and a measuring cup.

    What constitutes the mug is far more than just the associated visual and tactile sensations; "the mug" is far more complex than just that. We can take a similar view to the nature of the self. That's the attitude found in Psychology, where the notion of self has never quite been settled.

    I'm not saying that Art's suggestion is wrong - of course the mug is a bundle of sensations*. But that is only part of the story.

    Another thread in the OP is the ubiquitous notion that the only thing of which we can be certain are our sensations. I don't agree with that, and I'm confident that others will only agree with it,a s Art themselves suggests, while writing posts for TPF. Their certainty will return as they push the "Post Comment" button, setting aside any doubts they may have about the existence of their screen, the internet, and the many folk who will lap up their words of wisdom. Doubt only takes place against a background of certainty, it is part of a frame in which we are confident. And there is far more to this frame than just the things we sense.

    My own meditative practices had a somewhat different outcome. I glimpsed the ecstasy of which Art speaks, and have no doubts of its attractiveness. This is presumably what draws those who continue to meditate in to the habit, a conviction that the meditative state allows access to a higher reality, or some such story. those who meditate see the experience as real. But what of those who do not continue with meditative practice? I found the experience more a removal from reality, similar to other experiences that were chemically induced. The salient point here is that our experiences are not always real - as idealists themselves are prone to point out. That the ecstasy is experienced as reality does not imply that it is indeed reality.

    There's much more that could be said, and a literature of considerations that mitigate against the ubiquitous idealism of the philosophical novice. Unfortunately in these fora the arguments rarely get a start. It's good to keep in mind that despite their having differing opinions on almost everything, professional philosophers are overwhelmingly realist with regard to the existence of the world around us.

    Of course, whatever gets you through the night, but this is a philosophy forum, and part of that is taking a critical eye to what is said here. While Art is welcome their view, I'll not appologies for critiquing it.

    * Even that is not quite right. The sensations are also spoken of as of the cup, not as constituting it.
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    What alternative impresses you more?Patterner

    On the OP, who knows? This is just one of dozens of unresolvable threads asking what is really real and what an awareness of awareness is.

    Not everyone is equally excited by such speculative ventures.

    Is our role here to agree or identify an alternative? Or is it to find something more useful to do?

    My comment was about the nature of awareness. I am a conscious creature (I think) I find consciousness or the self to be a fairly unremarkable experience, it is flawed and wavering, affected by everything from the weather to sleep patterns, fades with age and as felt by me, seems to be a physical process. As to whether awareness is separate (the way a radio might be separate to the network it broadcasts) who can say? Is this perhaps the result of confusions in language; how would we demonstrated it and how does it matter?

    It seems to me that many people seize on the unresolvable question of what is really real because it still seems to offers them the kinds of gaps they need in which to locate their 'supernatural' beliefs. But the question remains, if idealism is true, who cares? It would make no difference to how I live, since the 'illusions' of physicality and realism place inviolable constraints on us all - whether you are Mick Jagger or the Dali Lama.
  • Patterner
    1.1k

    I just meant it sounded like you'd found a type of awareness that is more impressive than the human kind.
  • Joshs
    5.8k


    It's good to keep in mind that despite their having differing opinions on almost everything, professional philosophers are overwhelmingly realist with regard to the existence of the world around us.Banno

    I’ll go along with that, but it gets a bit tricky when we try to parse terms like ‘real’ and ‘exist’. For instance, Is the existence of the world absolutely or only relatively real?

    Now, however, we must not fail to clarify expressly the
    fundamental and essential distinction between transcendental­ phenomenological idealism versus that idealism against which realism battles as against its forsworn opponent. Above all: phenomenological idealism does not deny the actual existence of the real world (in the first place, that means nature), as if it maintained that the world were mere semblance, to which natural thinking and the positive sciences would be subject, though unwittingly. Its sole task and accomplishment is to clarify the sense of this world, precisely the sense in which everyone accepts it - and rightly so - as actually existing. That the world exists, that it is given as existing universe in uninterrupted experience which is constantly fusing into universal concordance, is entirely beyond doubt. But it is quite another matter to understand this indubitability which sustains life and positive science and to clarify the ground of its legitimacy.

    In this regard, it is a fundamental of philosophy, according to the expositions in the text of the Ideas, that the continual prog­ression of experience in this form of universal concordance is a mere presumption, even if a legitimately valid one, and that consequently the non-existence of the world ever remains think­able, notwithstanding the fact that it was previously, and now still is, actually given in concordant experience. The result of the phenomenological sense-clarification of the mode of being of the real world, and of any conceivable real world at all, is that only the being of transcendental subjectivity has the sense of absolute being, that only it is "irrelative" (i.e., relative only to itself), whereas the real world indeed is but has an essential relativity to transcendental subjectivity, due,namely, to the fact that it can have its sense as being only as an intentional sense-formation of transcendental subjectivity. Natural life, and its natural world, finds, precisely herein, its limits (but is not for that reason subject to some kind of illusion) in that, living on in its "naturality," it has no motive to pass over into the transcendental attitude, to execute, therefore, by means of the phenomenological reduction, transcendental self-reflection.
    (Husserl, Ideas II)
  • creativesoul
    12k
    premise: I am not what I am aware of; those are objects of awareness. Rather, I am awareness itself.

    Let’s unpack that. Of what am I aware? Of physical sensations (sight, sound, smell, touch, taste) along with emotions and thoughts. Seven types of sensations: five related to the (purported) external world, and the emotions and thoughts that constitute our inner world.
    Art48

    It follows that your emotions, thoughts, and inner world are not you.
  • Art48
    480
    A human is so much more than that. Being aware is so passive.Banno
    The idea is to determine what about me is enduring (or, at least, relatively enduring). Thoughts and emotions change in a second. The body changes slower but changes nonetheless. Awareness seems to be the only possible candidate for an enduring, relatively unchanging self.
  • Art48
    480
    It follows that your emotions, thoughts, and inner world are not you.creativesoul
    Good point. The only candidate for our permanent, enduring self is our awareness. But we also have a relative self. When someone says something about me, they usually refer to my thoughts, emotions, body, profession, family, nationality, etc.
  • Wayfarer
    22.8k
    The body changes slower but changes nonetheless. Awareness seems to be the only possible candidate for an enduring, relatively unchanging self.Art48

    The problem is, so far as science knows, awareness is dependent on the body. If the body dies it looses awareness of all kinds. Philosophically speaking the case has to be made that something about awareness transcends the physical body.

    Incidentally it is just this claim of the changelessness of the self that is denied by the Buddha.
  • Banno
    25.3k
    The idea is to determine what about me is enduring (or, at least, relatively enduring).Art48
    Your teeth, as I understand from a peripheral interest in Archaeology.

    It is not clear that endurance is a suitable criteria for aspects of self. Why shouldn't self be ephemeral? That seems to fit the facts.
  • Paine
    2.5k
    It is not clear that endurance is a suitable criteria for aspects of self. Why shouldn't self be ephemeral? That seems to fit the facts.Banno

    That is the Aristotelian view. The supposition of eternal agents in De Anima 3 is distinguished from memory that permits the activity of a person who endures through time for a bit to be experienced.
  • Banno
    25.3k
    That is the Aristotelian view.Paine
    Ok. Is it the right view?
  • Paine
    2.5k


    I think it is a helpful perspective but not a last word or the results of a complete system.
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    What do you make of awareness as the thing which endures? Is awareness like the empty vase in which life arranges the flowers (personality)? Doesn't seem particularly useful understanding - soon we'll be fumbling around in the darkness looking for essences and souls....
  • Banno
    25.3k
    I'm not in favour of treating awareness as a thing. Might lead to qualia.
  • frank
    16k
    Might lead to qualiaBanno

    That might be painful.
  • Banno
    25.3k
    For sure, they are not going to do you any good.
  • frank
    16k
    For sure, they are not going to do you any good.Banno

    :grin:
  • Wayfarer
    22.8k
    The problem with this OP, as I already said, is that the contributor who introduced it, has insufficient knowledge to defend it. Were it presented by a Vedantin there are answers to the various challenges posed to it, but it requires extensive knowledge of the tradition from which one isolated idea has been taken.

    To which end, hereunder a recent lecture by Swami Sarvapriyananda, who is the current director of the Vedanta Society, mentioned in the OP. I find him a very charming lecturer, and he seems knowledgeable of philosophy both Eastern and Western (notice he quotes David Hume in the first couple of minutes of this lecture.)

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