Apologies for leading the thread on a tangent, I’ve become enraged due to the recent anti-Asian shootings. — Saphsin

I understand. :pray:

One can’t control the immediate fact others in the community have racist thoughts and are acting in a discriminatory way, but you can join in solidarity with anti-racist activists who are bringing the issue to public attention. — Saphsin

Yes! As most of us know, much racism and stupidity we hear comes to us in ways that we cannot directly respond to or fight - in media reporting, drive by abuse, ignorant slogans written against the wall, whatever. Hence the importance of finding ways to build resilience to hate and unpleasant discourse.

I am aware of what others are doing and I do not intend to trivialize ethics. I am only focused on whether a study in esthetics would do a better job, e.g: if people understood (experienced, studied, etc.) beauty (set aside the fact that such an issue could be subjective), they would be more inclined to act ethically (even though that coudl be subjective, too). — ThomasJ

It's a very interesting question. It could be argued that every profession would benefit from lessons in aesthetics and ethics. These are often seen as part of every well rounded education. The challenge from my perspective would be where to start and how to tailor it to engage students who are not necessarily interested in these matters to begin with. Someone at the faculty needs to identify what these subjects could add to the worldview of an engineer and how it could be made to relate to the subject more broadly. I think this requires a specialized assessment for cultural fit and development of an appropriate model of delivery.

As Epictetus said, — Ciceronianus the White

A key influence on Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy as it happens.

Epictetus:

“Men are disturbed not by things, but by the notions they form concerning things.”

I thought you'd like it.

You are aggressive. I am going to move on.

t's because we have taught them to do so. — baker

That's one of my favorite maxims, Baker. But you can't teach the whole world.

I was interested in your remark to Madfool about how clinical paranoia — Jack Cummins

You're right, Jack. It's very easy to select a world view that helps you to survive but may also destroy your ability to connect. I have often thought of that famous Howard Zinn quote - “Pessimism becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy; it reproduces itself by crippling our willingness to act.”

learning to let things go (good and bad) is the most important lesson in life any of us can learn, that carrying feelings (particularly anger) can have devastating effects not only on the quality of your life, but the lives of those around you. — synthesis

That's close to a key principle in Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy. The beliefs and responses you hold in relation to an event can do more to harm you and those around you than the actual event. The popular maxim that we can't control what others say to us but we can control how we react is also similar.

No point clogging this thread with AA versus better models. 'Alcoholic' is a pejorative term that labels someone as one thing. It but It is also almost impossible to define what an alcoholic is. It means different things based on situational factors. 'Alcohol misuse' is a more useful term.

Modern, religious people in "western" societies have usually no problem with gay marriage, the role of women in church and society. — DrOlsnesLea

You say "modern" & "western" - modern Western secular humanism has brought many people of faith into the present time and changed the religious views of some. However, I suggest many Western Christians are far from in agreement with your views. Women priests, anyone?

Besides, what God wants is defined by The 10 Commandments, the Golden Rule and the prayer at start of The New Testament (come thy will on Earth as in Heaven). — DrOlsnesLea

Commandments are subject to interpretation, the intentions are often far from clear. The first 5 commandments of the famous 10 actually have nothing to do with morality.

But let's just take - Thou shalt not kill. The interpretations just of this commandment are endless. In what circumstances shalt thou not kill? Can I serve in the military and go to war? Some Christians say no. Can I kill a burglar who breaks into my home? Some say yes, some say no. Is capital punishment justified? Christians are divided on this issue. And on it goes.

And you say there is the matter of 'what God wants?' How do you know what God wants? You can't get to this without subjective preferences.

We would definitely need to omit the 12 step approach — Jack Cummins

AA is a nice example of pessimism. It says you have a disease that can't be cured and that you will always be powerless. Even the world alcoholic (which Is no longer accepted in many circles) is a rather limited label. I prefer the SMART Recovery model for substance related issues.

Can philosophy help these people? — Athena

Not sure what that would look like but I would say that for many people it would not. Quality counselling might help.

AA groups speak of our higher selves — Athena

Not a big fan of AA based on what I have seen, but obviously social support groups do work and AA does work for some people. I prefer SMART Recovery. I am not crazy about hierarchical ideas like 'higher self' but some people find the frame useful.

Pessism keeps you from an untimely death, optimism keeps you from a full life. — TheMadFool

Being clinically paranoid could also keep you from an untimely death. But the question for me isn't just whether you survive, it is what kind of life you live and what else you might be missing owing to such tendencies.

And then there's the issue of the jungle metaphor. Is that really a useful analogue for what we call real life? What is the equivalent of a dangerous jaguar? I can see some potential contenders but I really can't see a great advantage to pessimism. Advocacy for pessimism often sounds to me like the teenager who says, "I'm not going to fall in love so I can never get hurt.'

:up:

Ok. So no hints for general approaches?

55

Good point.

I usually say "Yeah, back in the good old days when black people couldn't vote and we could beat up gay people. — T Clark

Yeah... I do pretty much the same.

What you say is wise and useful TC. I like the present time too, but I have met very few people in my extended circle who do. I'm particularly fascinated by young people who talk of the good old days they have not known - when products were better made, when music, art and writing was better, when the world was cleaner and free. They sound like baby boomers. But it's just possible I have made too much of this...

pessimistic thoughts can give rise to a sense of hopelessness. — Jack Cummins

Yes, and many of the people I have met who claim to be pessimists are just dignifying hopelessness with a more classy term. I think hopelessness is often a faith based position - in as much as there are folk who believe that human destiny is one of inevitable doom, as opposed to the more obvious point that we are all destined to die.

Here, I am suggesting that even though postmodernism comes with potential problems, in that it can give rise to a collapse of values, the insights of modernity and postmodernism are important for enabling critical analysis. — Jack Cummins

Out of interest, Jack - what do you think are a couple of useful insights post-modernism has given us?

So, in a way pessimism can even be contagious as an underlying factor permeating social life and perhaps the ones who experience the profound states presenting in mental health care do so because they are the most sensitive ones. — Jack Cummins

Sure. There is also a difference between pessimism and hopelessness.

I was asking another question.

Understanding Kafka.
Have you read his 'Letter to His Father' ? What do you think of it ?
https://www.brainpickings.org/2015/03/05/franz-kafka-letter-father/
— Amity — Amity

I didn't have a comment on the letter.

Pessimism or optimism? I think which one is best depends upon the toll your choice takes on your mental health.

Talking of a blend. Cellist Pablo Casals had a great quote - 'The situation is hopeless, we must take the next step.'

Tips for resisting the recurrences of pre-modern atavisms.

You what ? What people, where...? — Amity

That was a joke - about people turning the clock back to before the modernist project, hence pre-modern.

You don't seen an inconsistency in light being a particle AND a wave — TheMadFool

I thought light was a wave not a particle.

This is not aimed at you Mad Fool but I am always fascinated how many qualified theoretical physicists there are on this forum poised and ready to disprove science.

I'm just describing what I see. If you don't see it, great. What do you see?

Isn't that true of any generation ?
You call that music ? You call that dancing ? — Amity

No question but generally old farts. I am hearing this from people too young to be able to look back - in their twenties.

A book called the Authenticity Hoax taps into this idea too. Andrew Potter.

He is more intriguing than I first thought. — Amity

Reading Kafka after the Holocaust gives it a different flavour and I can't unread that particular tragedy in the work.The Trial and Josef K's 'guilt' plays totally differently. We're back to a sinister cage looking for a bird.

I was taught that the motto of modernism was Ezra Pound's Make It New - this:

It's always seemed to me that modernity is a rejection of the past as much as it is confidence in the future. — T Clark

It has struck me for several years now how many people in the West seem fixated on a mawkish form of nostalgia. There's a prevailing view that things were better in the past. A Golden Age.

This sentiment fills the speeches of public officials, the plots of movies and longform TV and the comments on social media. People keep presenting the view that we have lost something, that we need to regain it. The new mansions built in my city are nostalgia structures - pretend Victorian or grotesque 18th century pastiches called French Provincials. There's the now mainstream hipster-lite aesthetic, a fetishisation of early 20th century workwear and an ardour for old school crafts and multifaceted 'authenticity'.

Politically, aesthetically and emotionally, no one seems to much like the present time, no one seems to praise the modern and most folk seem afraid of the post-modern and the future. People seem to be going for pre-modernism.

:up: If you have any tips for the non academically inclined, let me know.

don't add insult to injury by helping them. — Valentinus

I agree. Josef K should just have lain down that morning and offered them a butcher's knife... :joke:

'Modern' period - commenced with publication of Newton's Principia 1687.
'Post-modern' period - commenced with publication of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity 1915.

Modernity is characterised by the idea of progress, trust in science, confidence in civilized values, the idea of destiny.

Post-modernity is characterised by nihilism, distrust of meta-narratives, cultural relativism, rejection of universal values, a plurality of competing cultural and social constructs. — Wayfarer

This is certainly a standard academic construct of the ideas. I wasn't sure the OP was wanting to explore this side of the street, although maybe. Modernism wasn't optimistic for long. It may have begun this way but after World War One it became drenched in pessimism and ideas of absurdity, regress and doom. And Duchump's Fountain (1917 urinal sculpture) kind of anticipated the postmodern project and Tracy Emin by some years. Incidentally when you read Don Quixote 1605, you find a book that is like a post-modern pastiche, dripping with irony and self-reflexivity. It could almost be John Barth (except readable). I'm not confident that categories like this really work.

I think I've mentioned before that I find the inability of so many Americans to think in terms of a common wealth... puzzling. — Banno

Lots of Americans are surprised by this too. Michael Sandel is good on this.

Pierre Whalon, Bishop in charge, Episcopal Churches in Europe. — Wayfarer

You know what they say about Episcopals? It's the bland leading the bland....

can one say they are indifferent? — Warren

I think I am largely indifferent to this. Many categories are ineffable. I have no idea what modern is meant to mean. Is postmodernism simply hard modernism? Is sticking 'post' in front of something just a sign you have run out of ideas? Is modern the same thing as contemporary? Can a Buddhist monk in rural Thailand be modern; or do you have to be an ironic atheist working in IT in a big city? Is it situational, or is it a state of mind? Or is it simply a word; misused, abused, a usage in search of a meaning?

God would have to be outside of the whole universe, which seems scientifically impossible given that nothing is outside of the universe by definition. — scientia de summis

Doesn't God defy the laws of physics and can do what it pleases? I never quite get that God can be limited by the impossible.

I'm a bit worried about myself, seriously, because I've never had the experience that seems to lie at the foundation of theism viz. that desire, even desperation, to need an explanation for the universe. In short, the question, "why all this?" never crossed my mind. Is there something wrong with me? — TheMadFool

No. I share that too. I really don't care.

And that contradicts Biblical Cosmology. — Dharmi

True. But all the Christians I know see the Bible as allegory.

t concerns me that people want to see behaviors and thus create people to see them carried out. A bizarre political move. But it is political as it is one person affecting another, and it deals with the superstructure. I am very concerned people want to see X from another person because they have a vision that just needs to happen for the other person. — schopenhauer1

Human beings are behavior.

And, what do you think? — schopenhauer1

People being born doesn't really concern me. I am more interested in behavior once they are here.