I don't know him all that well, and I'm not particularly diplomatic at the best of times. I don't know how I'd ask if a need to express a lack of sympathy overrode an ability to parse the passage - or if he's actually intellectually incapable, without it coming across as an insult. — counterpunch
You are afraid of insulting someone on this forum? Insult is basically second nature here. — schopenhauer1
I've pretty much managed to alienate everyone already, so in practice I would have to say, no! But I would rather it were not so. Me, I value a diversity of opinion - even stupid opinions are useful for contrast!! — counterpunch
Alienating everyone is also second nature here — schopenhauer1
I don't buy into the whole political correctness thing, or equality as a virtue. And there's a very strong left wing contingent here - who only seem interested in confirming their beliefs. — counterpunch
Oh shit, now you're alienating me :lol:. I don't know man.. What are you saying? — schopenhauer1
Then there's political correctness; in my view, an utterly disingenuous dogma that uses identity politics in reverse, in pursuit of the very same authoritarian power a command economy affords. — counterpunch
So, no reply, huh? Fair enough, but at least ask yourself - if it's because you disagree with me, or that you fear the retribution of the mob you helped create?? — counterpunch
Within the hierarchy of fabrications that compose our lives—families, countries, gods—the self incontestably ranks highest. Just below the self is the family, which has proven itself more durable than national or ethnic affiliations, with these in turn outranking god-figures for their staying power. So any progress toward the salvation of humankind will probably begin from the bottom—when our gods have been devalued to the status of refrigerator magnets or lawn ornaments. Following the death rattle of deities, it would appear that nations or ethnic communities are next in line for the boneyard. Only after fealty to countries, gods, and families has been shucked off can we even think about coming to grips with the least endangered of fabrications—the self. — Ligotti/CAHR
to live falsely as pawns of affect, or to live factually as depressives,
— Thomas Ligotti, The Conspiracy Against the Human Race
What is said here implies that living as a depressive is as much living as a pawn of affect as any alternative.
There's a deep irrationality in thinking that being a depressive is somehow authentic, that being happy is inauthentic. — Banno
@BannoTediously, Freud was about right about this effect of civilisation on the discontent of the individual. And the ideology of scientism supports this denigration of emotion - the primary insult against woman - and worship of the great god, Rationality. — unenlightened
And to live on our emotions is to live arbitrarily, inaccurately—imparting meaning to what has none of its own. Yet what other way is there to live? Without the ever-clanking machinery of emotion, everything would come to a standstill.
There would be nothing to do, nowhere to go, nothing to be, and no one to know. The alternatives are clear: to live falsely as pawns of affect, or to live factually as depressives, or as individuals who know what is known to the depressive. How advantageous that we are not coerced into choosing one or the other, neither choice being excellent. One look at human existence is proof enough that our species will not be released from the stranglehold of emotionalism that anchors it to hallucinations. That may be no way to live,but to opt for depression would be to opt out of existence as we consciously know it.
Yet what other way is there to live? Without the ever-clanking machinery of emotion, everything would come to a standstill. There would be nothing to do, nowhere to go, nothing to be, and no one to know.
Within the hierarchy of fabrications that compose our lives — Ligotti/CAHR
I don't get this passage in the way I got the last. I can comprehend the idea of the evolutionary organism, inventing god, nation and socio-economic class status, and wearing this ideological armour to hide his shameful, animal self. But beneath this disguise there remains a kinship tribal creature with parents and siblings, and the self - a moral being, existing in a state of nature. So I don't understand what he's deconstructing the world toward here - or how he dismisses the family or the self. I can only suppose he's driving toward nihilism, but that so, there are easier and more certain ways to get there. And in the midst of this, he speaks of salvation beginning from the bottom, but from what? What is left? — counterpunch
Oh, right - so is this book one long advert for Buddhism? I'm not in the market for a religion. I value existence, I think ego is healthy, 'stuff' is both productive and entertaining, meat tastes great, sandals look stupid, and men should wear trousers. Other than that, awesome! — counterpunch
Humans left Africa 70,000 years ago, and migrated all around the world. We have adapted to local conditions; most obviously, the amount of melanin in the skin in relation to how much sunlight there is. There's been plenty of time to adapt an instinctual tendency to reduce activity in cold weather — counterpunch
I get no heat - and all I want to do is curl up against the cold. There's a good reason for it, and I've figured out what it is. I think it's an interesting puzzle, because subjectively, it's a bad strategy. I feel the cold much more when I'm curled up than I do when running around. It doesn't matter how cold it is if I keep moving, I hardly feel it. Yet...I don't want to. Why not? — counterpunch
I think it isn't so much against emotions qua emotions, but emotions that illicit a positive affiliation with this or that "anchoring". The anchoring of "hard work". The anchoring of "family". The anchoring of "good citizen". The anchoring of "creative artistic type". Or alternatively, he is questioning how it is we attach ourselves to certain motivational forces that makes it seem "There's something to do, There's someone to know, There's something to be, There' to know". It seems like he is saying that the depressive doesn't see an attachment to any of these via some emotional value from it. Hence his main point is this:
"And to live on our emotions is to live arbitrarily, inaccurately—imparting meaning to what has none of its own. Yet what other way is there to live? Without the ever-clanking machinery of emotion, everything would come to a standstill." — schopenhauer1
I hope you mean elicit not illicit. :grimace: — unenlightened
Depression is an anchor too. One cannot write a book without a strong attachment to the topic.What he does is contrive to negate positive emotions as 'false', 'arbitrary', 'inaccurate', etc, but his own feelings are exempted from this because they are already negative, and thus their negation makes them positive - honest, realistic, intelligent. Thus he is positively attached to depression. And again, he negates the character of life in a very 19th century scientific traditional way here: "the ever-clanking machinery of emotion". The thing about machinery - even quite sophisticated machinery, is that it is devoid of emotion, but with a sleight of mind and a turn of phrase, Ligotti contrives the mechanisation of emotion itself, and even complains of the noise! The age of clanking machinery has long gone! — unenlightened
This means that he doesn't expect nor encourage anyone to take the view of the depressive. He is pulling a "meta meta" here. He is apathetic to both options of emotional attachment and the dysthymia of emotion of the depressive. Neither choice is excellent he says.
That all being said, I think his main insight here is that at the end of the day, if one somehow was able to strip their emotions from their "anchorings" and unquestioning motivations (like family, work, hobbies, things to do, people to see, places to go), we would be cast upon a sort of "bare bones" of what existence "is" without these hallucinations. "What's the point" would be constantly on people's mind. Hence, I think the quote that conveys his point most here is:
Yet what other way is there to live? Without the ever-clanking machinery of emotion, everything would come to a standstill. There would be nothing to do, nowhere to go, nothing to be, and no one to know. — schopenhauer1
What about that part? — schopenhauer1
I already critiqued the ever-"clanking machinery of emotion", and having mechanised emotion and so deprived life of all its liveliness, he declares it vacuous. Emotion is the relationship of a life to the world, and without relationship to the world life would indeed come to a standstill. So what? So treasure your emotions, even the negative ones. — unenlightened
Have you ever felt that there was nothing to do, nowhere to go, nothing to be, no one to know? I am not asking for self-help or anything or to "snap out of it", just curious if that feeling ever came upon you where no motivation or significance had impetus. — schopenhauer1
ALL is best, though we oft doubt,
What th' unsearchable dispose
Of highest wisdom brings about,
And ever best found in the close.
Oft he seems to hide his face,
But unexpectedly returns
And to his faithful Champion hath in place
Bore witness gloriously; whence Gaza mourns
And all that band them to resist
His uncontroulable intent.
His servants he with new acquist
Of true experience from this great event
With peace and consolation hath dismist,
And calm of mind all passion spent. — John Milton
I think that is his point, so not sure where the disagreement. — schopenhauer1
It's more to me about motivations. The feeling that there is "nothing to do, nowhere to go, nothing to be, and no one to know". — schopenhauer1
One cringes to hear scientists cooing over the universe or any part thereof like schoolgirls over-heated by their first crush. From the studies of Krafft-Ebbing onward, we know that it is possible to become excited about anything—from shins to shoehorns. But it would be nice if just one of these gushing eggheads would step back and, as a concession to objectivity, speak the truth: THERE IS NOTHING INNATELY IMPRESSIVE ABOUT THE UNIVERSE OR ANYTHING IN IT. — Ligotti
I think it's pretty impressive. — darthbarracuda
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