Only if I exist. Are you claiming I exist? Then there can be evidence.
— unenlightened
And that's the point. According to the paradox, the existence of green apples is evidence for the claim "if something isn't black then it isn't a raven", and because of contraposition is also evidence for the claim "if something is a raven then it is black". — Michael
Why must it have something to do with ravens? — Michael
The point you are missing is that if I don't exist, there can be no evidence as to my gender or my place of habitation. None at all. Not green apples, and not my genitals. Evidence can only be brought for or against existential claims.
"All dragons are Welsh." Look around and you will not find a non-Welsh dragon, though there may be stories. And of course there are those green apples in England. But this is nonsense. There are no dragons, and so no evidence is forthcoming about their nationality. "all dragons are Welsh" says nothing about the world, and therefore there is no evidence for or against it. — unenlightened
Why most people have that requirement for evidence is a good question maybe. It's not so easy to answer that. But whether we can answer that question or not, it's a fact that for most people, purported evidence needs to have something to do with what it's evidence for--so if it's purported evidence for something about ravens and the color they are, it needs to have something to do with the creature in question and their color. — Terrapin Station
...if it's purported evidence for something about ravens and the color they are
The claim "if something is not black then it is a raven" is logically equivalent to the claim "if something is a raven then it is black". — Michael
You just clearly don't understand what logical equivalence means, — Michael
You admit that your existence as a Welsh man is evidence against the claim "if someone is Welsh then they are a woman". — Michael
It is a choice whether the statement is about the world or about the way we are going to talk. If it is about the world, then there will be evidence. But if it is about the world, it is not the same as the contrapositive, for reasons I've already gone into ad nauseam. The paradox relies on the ambiguity, and the refusal to choose whether the statement is actually making a claim about the world or not, but still applying rules of evidence as though it were. — unenlightened
1. The proposition that if something is a raven then it is black is logically equivalent to the proposition that if something is not black then it is not a raven.
2. The existence of green apples is evidence (even if weak) that the proposition that if something is not black then it is not a raven is true. — Michael
1. The proposition that (a) if something is a raven then it is black is logically equivalent to the proposition that (b) if something is not black then it is not a raven. — Michael
2. The existence of green apples is evidence (even if weak) that the proposition that if something is not black then it is not a raven is true. — Michael
As I see it, 1 is confirmed by the law of contraposition and 2 is confirmed by the maths provided here (coupled with the seemingly reasonable definition of "evidence" given in that same post1). I certainly don't see anything that can be construed as ambiguous. — Michael
No, that would be material equivalence. We're discussing logical equivalence. — Michael
Then (1) and (2) of the op are not logically equivalent. That is the problem, you are assuming that they are logically equivalent, without adhering to your definition of "logically equivalent".Two statements have the same truth value in every model — Michael
(2) Everything that is not black is not a raven. — Michael
As the maths shows, each successful observation increases the probability of the assertion being true, and so seems to me to count as evidence (even if weak evidence). — Michael
The vast majority of people have a relevance requirement for evidence. The purported evidence needs to have something to do with what it's evidence for. — Terrapin Station
2. Is false. There is no such thing as evidence for a universal statement. What's more, you can't apply probabilities to universal statements. — tom
I think that there is an equivocation here on what we mean by "probability." You are really talking about our (subjective) confidence in the truth of a proposition, rather than its (objective) likelihood. "All ravens are black" is either true (p=1) or false (p=0), regardless of what we think. — aletheist
The problem is that this (2) also allows that "Everything that is black is not a raven" is true as well. So it is impossible that (1) and (2) are logically equivalent, under that definition of logically equivalent. — Metaphysician Undercover
Then (1) and (2) of the op are not logically equivalent. — Metaphysician Undercover
2. Is false. There is no such thing as evidence for a universal statement. What's more, you can't apply probabilities to universal statements. — tom
This is refuted by evidence that there is something in the blue area, but not confirmed or made more likely by anything appearing anywhere else. — unenlightened
For most people, something counts as (even weak) evidence for the truth of a proposition only if it significantly increases our confidence — aletheist
So I don't understand what you mean by "probability". — Michael
I would count as evidence anything that increases the probability that the statement is true. — Michael
As shown here, each successful observation increases the probability that the statement "if something is an egg then it is white" is true. — Michael
Given that the existence of green apples increases the probability that "if something isn't black then it isn't a raven" is true ... — Michael
Strictly speaking, probability only applies to the long run of experience, not to an individual case. In general, the probability is 1/52 that the top card of any randomly shuffled deck is the ace of spades; i.e., that is the value to which the proportion of cases where that happens will converge as the number of trials increases to infinity. However, in each individual case, the probability is either 1 (if it is the ace of spades) or 0 (if it is any other card). Again, you are confusing this (objective) fact of the matter with the (subjective) confidence that someone has before looking at the card. — aletheist
Decrease the number to zero, and see how that affects things. You have already declared that there are eggs. That is confirmed by every egg, but that they are all white is only confirmed by looking at them all. — unenlightened
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