Finally I meet someone who understands Europe as its truest spirit. Thank you so much.
Me, as a Spaniard, I do not how to express how thankful I am to Roman and Greek culture. They completely sharped my country. We never had to forget Spain was a very important Empire with those cultures. It is just my humble opinion but I think Mediterranean empires and culture was the basic starting point to all the Occidental countries (government, sociality, economy, State, law, philosophy, etc...)
Nevertheless, sadly, we live in a paradigma where the people do not give a damn about culture and roots. Most of Americans or Asians (no them all but the most) when they hear Europe they quickly think just UK, France, Holland and Germany (provably some Nordic too though). As I named previously the "north European". Yes, they have a better economy, industry and salaries than mine. But... These do not make them more european. A Greek (Mediterranean) is European as much as a German, French, Hungarian, Croatian... It is crazy how European continent has a lot of cultures but they only put economics first. — javi2541997

Europe as a whole seems to have tired of existing based on its Christian Germanic Roman traditions. From the 18th century, until the early half of the 20th century, Europe constantly lived in a state of panic. There were armed revolts in all corners of the continent, intellectuals gathering to overthrow political regimes established more than a 1000 years ago, prejudices pre-established by the revolutionary enlightenment vision, etc...

The problem is that there is a lot of rich cultural heritage that is being brushed aside by this European resentment. This should be pursued again; a renaissance, but from the past three centuries!

I, living in the "New World", see Europe as it is today, and knowing all its history, I can only be saddened. The noble classist spirit of Europe should again be revived with pride! Not repudiated as a sin that they have committed!

A good government is one that imitates/mimics anarchy to a T if possible — TheMadFool

A "good" government is one that is not established, but emanated from the interactions of people. Anarchism has to be established, and, therefore, is just another type of State.

you allow yourself to be trapped by the innocence that humanity, with power in hand, will act willingly simply because this act would benefit itself. — Gus Lamarch

But I've not said this. The exercise I was hoping to go through is the recognition that all societies are far more complex than what you'd like to paint it as. I offered as support a story of cooperation, which has happened and still happens if we look at local political structures. People willingly cooperate often and what they accomplish when they do this willingly because they are inspired is far greater than the fear you suggest as a driving factor or indeed the individualism you appear to push as a solution. It's too simplistic.

We don't drink from wells we dug ourselves. The vocabulary you use isn't your own. Etc. Etc.

In any case, I appreciate the somewhat more civil tone in the last few posts.

The noble classist spirit of Europe should again be revived with pride! Not repudiated as a sin that they have committed! — Gus Lamarch

I wish we can do it! At least keeping the noble culture alive and spreading through all the countries. The only real time where Europe was at it’s peak was with the Roma Empire. Same language, currency, and law. True, it was perfect at all due to slavery, constant wars etc... Nevertheless if people read the context of time they would appreciate how different the Latin/Greek culture and empire were towards the “barbarians”. Impressive that Romans called them “barbarians” because they do not have culture at all and they made decisions with the use of violence.
Nowadays those barbarians are the rulers of EU... what happened? I do not even know. A lot of facts I guess. Are they guilty? I think not they are just using the advantages. Could it be different? I guess it doesn’t disappear at all the Latin/Greek culture but sadly this is not “worthy” in the bank system of today.

The exercise I was hoping to go through is the recognition that all societies are far more complex than what you'd like to paint it as. I offered as support a story of cooperation, which has happened and still happens if we look at local political structures. People willingly cooperate often and what they accomplish when they do this willingly because they are inspired is far greater than the fear you suggest as a driving factor or indeed the individualism you appear to push as a solution. It's too simplistic. — Benkei

The question under discussion is the cause of why contemporary society is established as it is. I believe, and I theorize, that there was a distortion at the beginning of the civilizing process, and that we could have established ourselves in a much more successful and prosperous way in much less time if we accepted our nature - the Egoist "Government" that was the initial topic of the discussion -.

You seem to be stuck in an optimistic view of reality, and I that's not a problem, however, I affirm to you that humanity is much more mundane than you believe it to be.

The fact that humanity cooperates now, in the way that it cooperates, is a consequence of the establishment of the State at the dawn of society. What you perceive to be a "voluntary cooperation" between people, is nothing more than millennia of oppression and diminishment of the individual and of his natural will to realize himself uniquely and individually.

Your perception of reality is tied to the contemporary way of seeing the world. The Romans did not think as we do, the ancient Greeks did not conceive of the world in the same way that we do, much less the Sumerians, still, the State is there, with its elite, and its established estratification, so there is nothing to support the argument that humanity in society arose from a union between wills. If that was the case, the historical records of ancient Sumer, and of its structuring as a civilization, would not convey the image of a state sustained through fear, but one of "cooperation" between individuals.

The vocabulary you use isn't your own. — Benkei

The topic of language is another subject that we both probably disagree with.

"Language is intrinsically part of the individual who conceives and projects it into existence, and it only serves to "draw" the image of the wishes and purposes of its projector."

Language, in terms of ownership, is only capable of expressing its user's own property. For example:

"My vision";
"My opinion";
"My friend";
"My life".

Even when it is intended to communicate something that is owned by another entity, the perception of ownership is obligatorily expressed together. Example:

"It's his car";
"The idea said is from XX";
"The subject in question was conceived by XX".

Language is also capable of projecting the power battle between egos. Example:

"The idea that I just taught you, was first conceived by XX";
"The car I'm using is borrowed from that person".

(The point of my comments on language is not focused on the semantic rules of the language, but on the concept of "language" and its daily use during history)

In any case, I appreciate the somewhat more civil tone in the last few posts. — Benkei

I felt compelled to be more polite to you, because you made it clear to me that you are looking to have a debate about my philosophy, and not just looking to cause a scene in question from our past discussions.

Nowadays those barbarians are the rulers of EU... what happened? — javi2541997

We cannot take off the credit from the Germanic countries. They were the most civilized countries in the world between the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries.

The point is that the whole of Europe, today, is in a situation of giving up on itself.

I believe that if the West recovers the noble spirit of past centuries, hegemony could be achieved.

We cannot take off the credit from the Germanic countries. They were the most civilized countries in the world between the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. — Gus Lamarch

Agree with this point. They were been always there. Even they have created one of the basic principles that every nation wants to get: the so called welfare state (another Dante we can talk about is what we consider as a “welfare state”) that clearly leads a more developed country.
For example: Sweden investment in science and education is around 2.25 of its GDP. Spain investment is just 1.1... I have to admit it, my politicians destroy Spain the most they can. It is a shame.

But I guess we are not unique in the EU. Check out for example European historic countries like Poland and Hungry... everything is wrong and there are many differences. But I want to say here is that despite the social/economical problems we still “Europeans” doesn’t matter what the north European could say.

But I guess we are not unique in the EU. Check out for example European historic countries like Poland and Hungry... everything is wrong and there are many differences. But I want to say here is that despite the social/economical problems we still “Europeans” doesn’t matter what the north European could say. — javi2541997

If your point really is about this stigma that northern Europe has with the "Mediterranean" south, in fact, they are wrong, because the whole basis that sustains European society today is, as I had already stated, the one left by the ancient Greeks and which had been vastly expanded by the Romans.

And well, the very word "Europe" is of Greek origin:

"In classical Greek mythology, Europa-Ancient Greek: Εὐρώπη, Eurṓpē-was a Phoenician princess. One view is that her name dela derives from the ancient Greek elements εὐρύς-eurús-," wide, broad "and ὤψ
- ōps, gen. ὠπός, ōpós - "eye, face, countenance", hence their composite Eurṓpē would mean "wide-gazing" or "broad of aspect". Broad has been an epithet of Earth herself."

But as I also said, humanity lives in a space of light surrounded by a sea of amnesia created by itself.

I have to admit it, my politicians destroy Spain the most they can. It is a shame. — javi2541997

Well, having a socialist Prime Minister in a Catholic kingdom is not a good strategy for achieving success.

Well, having a socialist Prime Minister in a Catholic kingdom is not a good strategy for achieving success. — Gus Lamarch

Complexity. Like all my governors do. Well the governor of Madrid is conservative but I did not see a huge difference. Since COVID crisis started the last year is upon us a big pessimism of what the future holds. Many people lost their jobs and are in bankruptcy. I guess the European bonus pack are not the solution either if the politicians do not know how to use it properly. I guess we have to be more patient if we want to see more changes.
But it’s not all about economy. The country is divided again and this hurts when you have a family that literally experienced a civil war and it’s consequences except me. I wish I never met a civil war in my region. I think it is impossible but could be when there are lot of people getting divided about monarchy/republic or leftist/conservatives etc... I wish my compatriots do not want to die for politicians or whatever.