Really? And you have empirical data to back this up? — baker

Of course not. But I think it would be safe to bet that of the many millions of atheists who have lived, millions of them have done just this.

But I think it would be safe to bet that of the many millions of atheists who have lived, millions of them have done just this. — Tom Storm

And I'm pretty sure that most of them were not thrown in at the deep end, but instead didn't have many hardships when growing up, or their parents taught them resilience, or both.

A truly inspiring individual would be somenone who didn't have those perks, but who still made it in life.

Maybe true. Although the older atheists I have known got there despite being disowned and shunned by their working class communities and families.

Err... what order? I was simply saying that Logotherapy was developed with this in mind. I was not trying to classify it in any context other than the obvious. — Tom Storm

Sure. My point is, it's backwards, which makes it useless. It can be useful only if one learns it before one falls on hard times.

Although the older atheists I have known got there despite being disowned and shunned by their working class communities and families. — Tom Storm

These are the people I'm interested in. How did they make it in life?
If they were the proverbial trees with weak roots when they had to face the storm, how did the weather it?

If they were the proverbial trees with weak roots when they had to face the storm, how did the weather it? — baker

Sorry can you be clearer on this? Do you mean how does someone with no belief in a divine plan or purpose have the resilience and inward psychological strength to face life's considerable challenges - (especially in the face of poverty, sickness and death)?

Sure. My point is, it's backwards, which makes it useless. — baker

Jeez, Baker - the point I made has nothing to do about chronology. Logotherapy was developed as a tool to help people deal with adversity and was born in the experiences of the concentration camp. It's used in so many ways and has some application in helping people recover from substance use and anxiety.

*sigh*

Jeez, Baker - the point I made has nothing to do about chronology. — Tom Storm

Indeed, which is where your mistake is.

was born in the experiences of the concentration camp.

Frankl didn't go into the camp unprepared. He didn't invent logotherapy from scratch while he was in the camp.

It's used in so many ways and has some application in helping people recover from substance use and anxiety.

Yes, such is its intention, but I'm pointing out its major shortcoming: it "works" only for people who already believe it.

perhaps the absurd opens relations with others once the usual drudgery of unquestioned social armour has been cracked and experience can be shared (like through books)? — Cate

No idea. Absurd can be kind of mysterious can't it? With Camus I always thought the word 'absurd' was really just his rage masquerading as alienation. Camus seemed to detest all the trappings and rituals of the middle class culture he knew - education, marriage, family, work, religion. There is a point where rage can have a blunting affect (as suggested by the character Meursault in The Stranger) which can make everything seem.... unreal... absurd. Now this can be used in two ways (maybe more) as a source of terror and retreat, or as a fulcrum for transformation.

I still stand by my last point. Nothing mattering would just evaporate any reason for living. — Darkneos

Are you saying that if there is no authoritative source that determines what matters in some overarching general sense, then, simply on account of that, nothing could possibly matter to you personally? Seriously?

Frankl didn't go into the camp unprepared. He didn't invent logotherapy from scratch while he was in the camp. — baker

Baker, I'm assuming you're jesting, right?

I am not talking about the gestation of Logotherapy in Frankl's mind. I am talking about it as a psychotherapeutic product in the existential psychology tradition today. As Frankle himself said (and it was the original title of Mans' Search for Meaning) - Logotherapy is a journey from "From Death Camp to Existentialism."

I have no real comment on Logotherapy's efficacy and developmental history - it has been memorably accused of being authoritarian by some existentialists - esp May. In essence L says, if you can identify a reason for living (meaning) you are likely get through adversity. In counselling this is also called identifying a client's strengths and or protective factors. In other words meaning is made from within by looking without.

Making meaning was not his solution. He was explicitly against it because it was not confronting the absurd but running from it.

Baker, I'm assuming you're jesting, right? — Tom Storm

Most certainly not. You keep missing my point.

My point is that hardship will be easier to overcome if the person is prepared for it. And that without such a preparation in advance, a person is less likely to overcome hardship.

Can you relate to that?

My point is that hardship will be easier to overcome if the person is prepared for it. And that without such a preparation in advance, a person is less likely to overcome hardship. — baker

That could useful if I were talking about how hardship is overcome but I'm not.

That could useful if I were talking about how hardship is overcome but I'm not. — Tom Storm

That's too bad.

Obviously for them, it did. At least their understanding of it and the "realities" and resulting problems it presented in their own lives at least.

Good for them. Why just hurt yourself when you can hurt others first. :lol:

I'm kidding! That's sarcasm, folks. See, a little humor can go a long way. I turned a factual tragedy into an opportunity for laughter. Now, I'd have much rather preferred to prevent such tragedies if I had the ability to do so, but seeing as I do not, at least some positivity was spawned from negativity. Which proves life is indeed what you make of it. You listen and believe depressing philosophy, and internalize it rather, it becomes your reality. No people still die, people still starve, etc., but unless your doing something about it, rather especially if you're doing something about it, you can at least know your elevated mood during your work is both derived from suffering while it also alleviates it. Even if not on a small scale.