I feel bad about the mask metaphor. I guess I just mean that I don't remember any jokes in Whitman. It's more like he shows a part of his high self. He was probably hilarious too, but left that out. — norm

Nah you're good. It goes back to what we were talking about pieces introduced. I've been reading a lot about masks discussed in a certain way that was different that what I wanted to get at with Whitman, and that's where that came from. At the same time, you raise a good point about his lack of humor - I really like Whitman but my all time favorite is John Ashbery, and I think it comes down exactly to that. He can bring you to these whirling places, and then just insert this perfect low-key line that is hilarious in context.

I agree. Or more specifically: what world is that kid being trained for? If he's stuck in the underclass or in some war-torn place, perhaps harshness is actually best But to rise in peacetime capitalism is very much about soft skills. Violence is done to and by poor people (though often directed by the rich.) — norm

Yeah, good point. I've knocked on about my past a lot on here, so quickly: mom was poor, dad was waspy. This was my paternal grandfather, so waspy. Middle class childhood ('good kid') -divorce - dad's gone - community does a volte-face ('bad kid") and I think I've been on both sides (no idea where I am now.)

But I still think the general approach is true. I did better with even the 'rough' kids through soft skills. And I should clarify 'soft skills.' It means one thing when you're talking about knowing what beats to hit to signal class-membership in an interview - that's soft indeed. But it can also be just understanding someone from a few angles, and talking to them in a way that isn't claws first (though maybe with the implicit threat of claws)- that seems to hold across class lines in my experience. I don't mean soft like 'kid-gloves' but again in that sense that dicey real world interactions often require you to be patient, perceptive, and still (think of boxers - its less about brute force, than being able to still fear, and see the enemy) I usually wasn't good at this, I don't want to talk myself up, but when I was it worked.

But it can also be just understanding someone from a few angles, and talking to them in a way that isn't claws first - that seems to hold across class lines in my experience. I don't mean soft like 'kid-gloves' but again in that sense that dicey real world interactions often require you to be patient, perceptive, and still (think of boxers - its less about brute force, than being able to still fear, and see the enemy) I usually wasn't good at this, I don't want to talk myself up, but when I was it worked. — csalisbury

This all sounds right to me. I think (I hope!) that I've learned to operate effectively, but I had to do it the hard way. I remember being singled-out in grammar school. I was given a winter jacket by a teacher, a ball with my name on it. My memories are few of this time, but I chalk it up to my parents being themselves very awkward. They didn't have good social skills to teach me. I also remember getting in trouble for stalking a little girl and busting the mouth of one of her knightly defenders. This was maybe 4th grade. But I did well on a standardized test and was put in a smart kid's class, so I went from priding myself on the badass jets I could draw to being a strong reader. I also had a mentally disabled sibling. That didn't help! I was fortunate to be a tallish mesomorph. I had the hardware but not the software. If I could do it all again,...

But I did well on a standardized test and was put in a smart kid's class, so I went from priding myself on the badass jets I could draw to being a strong reader — norm

Oh man I love this - it's so easy to laugh at drawing badass jets, and to forget that a lot of - this - is also drawing badass jets. I was a shit drawer - still am - but there was a kid in my class who drew these wild mazes, you had to navigate. You go here to get this thing, and once you have that power up, it lets you go tho this place etc. - he was like a rockstar for those mazes, at the time. It was like he was this strange shaman. It's funny to think of how these same impulses work themselves out as you grow older.

I haven't read Ham or Rye (I've read some Bukowski, but just the poems) or Fante, but I think I'm picking up on the vibe you're describing., & I think we dovetail at the pretension in high school and beyond.

I've always had a kind of split thing with internet forums. I started posting on the imdb forums in middle school, or early high school, while my irl approach drifted into a kind of volatile mitch hedberg-y comedian vibe . Basically my whole thing on here - which is me, but not me - is an extension of the imdb thing i was trying to do, writing about 2001: A Space Odyssey at 14. Somewhere around senior year, I tried to draw the two things together, which worked for a while, but became unworkable (good enough when you're young & teenage/early 20 handsome, grating as you get older).

The forums are weird. I don't think I'll ever be able to break the foundation, when posting online, of being a socially marginal middle schooler arguing movies for self-imagined prestige. I can sort of get around it, but its basically that (now with fancy philosophers and literature!.) I've been meaning to wind down recently, actually, because I've been going through some positive changes in my life, and this forum-persona is feeling like something I need to let go for now. But I wanted to sort of bring our conversation to a good spot, because I enjoy our talks, I think it lets something beyond that forum-persona shine through. Before tonight it kind of felt like there was just something left more to say in our recent convo, and it felt weird to cut out before saying it. This feels like a good spot to me. As always, good talking, and catch you on the next orbit.

Oh man I love this - it's so easy to laugh at drawing badass jets, and to forget that a lot of - this - is also drawing badass jets. — csalisbury

This is an excellent point, it's drawing jets, most of it, things that fly. By the way, I once drew such a sweet little jet (perfect sideview was my jam) that another kid would not believed that I drew it. I was offended and yet delighted.

As always, good talking, and catch you on the next orbit. — csalisbury

Indeed, and may your journeys in the IRL be fascinating in the meantime!

I guess I've just always come to the usual conclusions - why should I care what is written in any holy book? — Tom Storm

In terms of divinely authority, I agree 100%. But the stories are great.

I guess I've just always come to the usual conclusions - why should I care what is written in any holy book?
— Tom Storm

In terms of divinely authority, I agree 100%. But the stories are great. — norm

Why should I care if I am beheaded, or you are? But I do. I don't pretend it is rational though.

A book is holy to the extent that people do care about it in a reverential way. If one happens to care about other people, one will usually somewhat care about the things they care about. First one cares about something, and from there one can reason what one should do. One cannot reason one's way to what one should care about, not even to caring about oneself.

One cannot reason one's way to what one should care about, not even to caring about oneself. — unenlightened

Yep. One can reason one's way towards an ideal, but lived experience is not purely rational.

The Bible came down as a single document at one point, but I know the individual stories are far older than the Tanakh. One of the earliest examples of writing is a clay fragment that has the Noah story on it. Some details are different, the Ark is more of a giant basket, but the animals coming "two by two," is in there.

Notably, it pre-dates historical evidence for Jews as a people existing by many centuries, going back really to the birth of writing and civilization in Mesopotamia.

Re: Judaism and Hellenic thought, it's interesting to note that Plato's Theory of Forms has been discovered in Memphite Theology in Egypt a few centuries before Socrates. There was always a myth that Socrates had studied in Egypt, so there might be some truth there.

The transmigration of souls, central to many Gnostic variants, shows up in Greece far earlier. It's possible it made its way into Greek thought via the Orphic Cult, which in turn was influenced by Hindu thought. Certainly there is some striking similarities between Buddhism and Gnosticism. It could be convergent evolution, or influence.

Homer's Greeks had a vision of the soul much more like early Hebrew Sheol. A shade was a place shadow of a once living man.

Sometimes I wonder how much the Greeks really Hellenized the areas they conquered, as opposed to being variously Egyptized and Hinduized themselves over time.