Can you coax your mind from its wandering
and keep to the original oneness? — T Clark

'Original oneness' - samadhi, trance states whereby the sense of separateness is dissolved in union with the Tao. Parallels with other 'traditions of union'.

Can you cleanse your inner vision
until you see nothing but the light? — T Clark

There's a famous Buddhist text, called the Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriach of Zen, Hui Neng, a legendary figure. The whole story of his ascent to the role of Patriach pivots around a poem he writes on the temple wall about exactly this point. It's probably too much of a digression to re-tell the whole story here, but note that it is one of those subjects on which Taoism and Ch'an (Zen) Buddhism tend to converge in some ways.

'Darkness' is a symbol of the 'divine darkness', the unknowable-yet-known nature of the ground of being. There's a school or movement called Dark Zen which is also reminiscent of these verses.

What is experienced by an individual organism is the result of a condition happening to all organisms. It is exquisitely "materialistic" in many ways. — Valentinus

I think that's you looking at it through the prism of modernity. As I said to T Clark, in practice Taoism is allied with nostrums, potions, and all manner of magic spells, it's about as far from materialism as you could imagine.

Taoism has no beef with science and the question of how Taoism is incompatible with science never ever came up. — TheMadFool

By ‘science’ I mean ‘modern science’, commencing with Newton. Traditional Taoism had no contact with modern science, obviously. Buddhism is different because it is more a global religion (‘Hinduism stripped for export’, in Alan Watts’ phrase.) ‘Science’ in the traditional meaning of ‘scientia’ is less sharply defined, and less inimical to traditionalism.

I think that's you looking at it through the prism of modernity. As I said to T Clark, in practice Taoism is allied with nostrums, potions, and all manner of magic spells, it's about as far from materialism as you could imagine. — Wayfarer

I was looking at the attempts to understand experience that was framed in the language established here. It is not about my point of view as a thinker but the body of work that was done from this head water.

The whole story of his ascent to the role of Patriach pivots around a poem he writes on the temple wall about exactly this point. — Wayfarer

I went and looked. Is this the verse you are talking about?

Bodhi originally has no tree,
The mirror(-like mind) has no stand.
Buddha-nature (emptiness/oneness) is always clean and pure;
Where is there room for dust (to alight)?

Alternate version:

The mind is the Bodhi tree,
The body is the mirror stand.
The mirror is originally clean and pure;
Where can it be stained by dust?

I think this gives some insight into the meaning of the mirror in the Chen translation. The Bodhi Tree is the tree Buddha sat under. A fig dropped down on him and he discovered gravity... I mean enlightenment.

'Darkness' is a symbol of the 'divine darkness', the unknowable-yet-known nature of the ground of being. There's a school or movement called Dark Zen which is also reminiscent of these verses. — Wayfarer

"Darkness" seems to have different meanings in different verses. Sometimes it has a negative connotation. I've been going through various verses and picking out examples. If it turns out interesting, I'll put it in a post.

Deleted by author.

By ‘science’ I mean ‘modern science’, commencing with Newton. Traditional Taoism had no contact with modern science, obviously. Buddhism is different because it is more a global religion (‘Hinduism stripped for export’, in Alan Watts’ phrase.) ‘Science’ in the traditional meaning of ‘scientia’ is less sharply defined, and less inimical to traditionalism. — Wayfarer

:up: :ok:

Is this the verse you are talking about? — T Clark

Yes, that's it. The point of it is that it was composed as a rejoinder to an earlier verse, penned by the presumed 'dharma heir' (i.e. presumed next abbott), Shenxui, who wrote:

The body is the bodhi tree.
The heart-mind is like a mirror.
Moment by moment wipe and polish it,
Not allowing dust to collect.

Which is a very pious and rather stereotypical verse in praise of purity.

So Huineng's rejoinder is much more radical - 'where can the dust alight?' It is very much in conformity with the Diamond Sutra, which is the sutra that Huineng had heard prior to setting out for the monastery. And that too is a very baffling and perplexing text (as well as being famous as the world's oldest printed book, having been mass-produced by woodblock edition in around 868 A.D. ¹ )

Commentators say that Huineng's verse shouldn't be seen as a refutation of Shenxui but a dialectical counterpoint, so to speak - the practice of purification is necessary, but the true foundation is the reality that there is nothing to purify. It's one of the most opaque and difficult issues in all Eastern studies, however, so don't think it can be easily understood.

There's a good encyclopedia entry on Huineng here.

It's one of the most opaque and difficult issues in all Eastern studies, however, so don't think it can be easily understood. — Wayfarer

I'm not going to go any further with this right now, but the similarity between the TTC, at least the Chen version, and the verses was interesting.

In bringing your spiritual (ying) and bodily (p'o) souls to embrace the One,
Can (neng) you never depart (li) from it? — T Clark

This is an interesting verse. I love how Chinese characters refer more clearly to ideas than to things. The interaction between ying (echo, answer, response) and pò (broken, expose the truth of) as internal aspects of our relation to the Tao, to me reflects Feldman Barrett’s proposed interaction between a constructed conceptual (‘spiritual’) reality and a constructed interocepted (‘bodily’) reality in an ongoing dialectic that manifests and refines consciousness. This is my initial reading, anyway, FWIW.

In concentrating your breath to attain softness,
Can you be like an infant (ying erh)?

In cleansing your mirror (lan) of the dark (hsüan),
Can you make it spotless? — T Clark

I’m going to try a different tack with this verse, mainly because so little of these translations make any clear sense to me. I’m not all that familiar with Chinese, but I’ve seen a number of side-by-side translations of verse 11 that don’t phrase these couplets as questions at all. Neng may be interpreted as ‘can’, but one thing I do know about Chinese grammar is that it always puts the thing the sentence is about first. Neng also refers to the idea of energy or capability, and its title is also written as neng wei, which can be translated as the capability of potential. The classical final particle hu at the end of each couplet here also implies a question, but it can be translated simply as an expression of doubt or astonishment.

So, the first couplet can be understood to question the mind-body problem, and our desire to separate these aspects from each other, when they are one in the Tao. Neng wu li hu can be translated simply as ‘inseparable’, with a question mark.

I think the second couplet talks about focusing qi on an appearance of yielding or flexibility, doubting whether it really does make us weak and helpless, like a baby.

The third couplet talks about cleansing ourselves from - excluding and refusing to look at - the unknown, doubting whether this really does render us without defect.

And the fourth couplet talks about caring for the nation and governing its people, and doubts whether this requires a capacity to act.

To grow yet not to lord over – To grow as in to grow a plant? Don’t overwater? — T Clark

To sustain, but not treat as livestock (ie. expendable commodities).

This is called the dark virtue – “Dark” gets used a lot. Sometimes it’s good. Sometimes not. This is worth looking in to more. — T Clark

Xuan is translated as ‘black, mysterious’ - the unknown - the good or bad of which constitutes the influence of affect. ‘This is named the “unknown” of the Tao’. These are answers we do not have any certainty of, and cannot be proven definitively. The verse in its entirety seems to outline the uncertainty in our relation to the Tao.

In D.C. Lau's version of verse 10, he makes a reference to how the Heavenly Gate is described in Zhuangzi that may interest the ongoing discussion of being and non-being:

"There is life, there is death, there is a coming out, there is a going back in - yet in the coming out and going back, its form is never seen. This is called the Heavenly Gate. The Heavenly Gate is nonbeing. The ten thousand things come forth from nonbeing. Being cannot create being out of being; inevitably it must come forth from nonbeing. Nonbeing is absolute nonbeing, and it is here that the sage hides himself. — Chapter Gensang Chu, translated by Burton Watson

In D.C. Lau's version of verse 10, he makes a reference to how the Heavenly Gate is described in Zhuangzi that may interest the ongoing discussion of being and non-being: — Valentinus

This is really helpful. Thanks.

The verse in its entirety seems to outline the uncertainty in our relation to the Tao. — Possibility

The way I set up my post for Verse 10, but cutting it all up in pieces, made it so I never looked at the whole verse as one piece. So, anyway, here's the whole verse, Chen version:

In bringing your spiritual (ying) and bodily (p'o) souls to embrace the One,
Can (neng) you never depart (li) from it?
In concentrating your breath to attain softness,
Can you be like an infant (ying erh)?
In cleansing your mirror (lan) of the dark (hsüan),
Can you make it spotless?
In opening and closing heaven's gate (t'ien men),
Can you be the female (tz'u)?
In being enlightened (ming) and comprehending all,
Can you do it without knowledge?
In loving the people and governing the state,
Can you practice non-action?
To give birth, to nurture,
To give birth yet not to claim possession (yu),
To act (wei) yet not to hold on to,
To grow (chang) yet not to lord over (tsai),
This is called the dark virtue (yüan te).

I see this differently than you do. To me this looks like a list of requirements for being a sage. Almost a checklist:

Embrace the Tao - check
Clear your mind - check
Be gentle and accepting - check
Abandon concepts - check
Non-action - check
No desire - check

I think the use of questions is just a literary device. Instead of "can you" it could just have easily have been "if you can." If you did that, the pattern would be a lot like "If" by Rudyard Kipling:

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

And - which is more - you'll be a Sage, my son.

The way I set up my post for Verse 10, but cutting it all up in pieces, made it so I never looked at the whole verse as one piece. So, anyway, here's the whole verse, Chen version: — T Clark

Appreciate seeing the whole Verse or Chapter as it is called in the Philip Ivanhoe translation.

The final part of Chapter Ten:

Comprehending all within the four directions, can you reside in nonaction?
To produce them !
To nurture them !
To produce without possessing;
To act with no expectation of reward;
To lead without lording over;
Such is Enigmatic Virtue !

And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

And - which is more - you'll be a Sage, my son. — T Clark

No sexism please, we're talking Virtue :smile:
No matter its roots, it's a nonsexual quality...

At the source of the practice, Taoism is gender-neutral religion, emphasizing the dualism and importance of both masculinity and femininity as necessary, complementary forces that cannot exist without each other. '

The interaction between ying (echo, answer, response) and pò (broken, expose the truth of) as internal aspects of our relation to the Tao, to me reflects Feldman Barrett’s proposed interaction between a constructed conceptual (‘spiritual’) reality and a constructed interocepted (‘bodily’) reality in an ongoing dialectic that manifests and refines consciousness. — Possibility

I still get lost in the terminology you use. So, ok, ok, I just downloaded Feldman Barrett's book. I can't promise I'll read it all in time to help with this discussion.

Appreciate seeing the whole Verse or Chapter as it is called in the Philip Ivanhoe translation. — Amity

From now on I'll give the entire verse at the beginning of my post. Do you like the Ivanhoe translation particularly?

From now on I'll give the entire verse at the beginning of my post. Do you like the Ivanhoe translation particularly? — T Clark

Thanks. I prefer seeing the whole first before breakdown.
I've just found the Ivanhoe translation and turned to the Verse being discussed.
Too early to say...
But did like the neatness of:
'To produce without possessing;
To act with no expectation of reward;'

I see this differently than you do. To me this looks like a list of requirements for being a sage. Almost a checklist: — T Clark

I think this is a Western interpretation of the text. We find in the text what we’re looking for, I suppose. But I’m intrigued by the interpretations here that attribute relations of affect, value and morality where it doesn’t seem to exist in the traditional Chinese concepts themselves.

I found this site, which presents three different translations of the text, and also presents the original Chinese, with a literal character-by-character translation in highlighting them individually. It’s eye opening. Written Chinese is a such a logically structured language. It has five basic grammar rules that are satisfyingly rational and rigid, like BIMDAS in mathematics. And the concepts are structured as atemporal thoughts, progressing from attended instances of experience towards a relation to the Tao.

In loving the people and governing the state,
Can you practice non-action? — T Clark

I’ll take a pedantic look at this couplet in particular, because this notion of wu wei is so central to the TTC. The first four characters are ‘to love/care for’ followed by ‘the nation/state’, and ‘to govern’ followed by ‘the people/citizens’. This describes the topic at hand. It’s followed by ‘the ability/energy/capacity’, ‘also/yet’, and then ‘not’, followed by wei - which is not really ‘action’ but ‘to act in that capacity’, and has a distinctly passive voice. As mentioned before, the couplet ends with hu, which denotes questioning, doubt or astonishment at the overall thought.

The liberties taken with altering the structure of this thought in translation are a fascinating look at how affect impacts on thought. To work backwards from the Tao, our affect tends to evaluate doubt or uncertainty as unpleasant, and so we straight away dissociate ourselves from this relation to the Tao by framing it as a question. The next aspect, that of acting in a certain capacity, is an exclusion by this particular thought as modified by the negation that precedes it. The conjunction then combines this focus - a question of not acting in a particular capacity - to the notion of ability or capability itself. This combination then interacts with the notion of the people (modified by the notion of governing) of the state (modified by the notion of loving or caring for).

So it reads more like this:

In caring for the state and governing its people, understanding our capabilities without acting in that capacity is uncertain - such is our relation to the Tao. How does this affect us? Does it hold us back from making decisions? Do we focus on attributing any apparent capability only to ourselves? Are we capable of governing without certainty in this regard?

I think this is a Western interpretation of the text. We find in the text what we’re looking for, I suppose. But I’m intrigued by the interpretations here that attribute relations of affect, value and morality where it doesn’t seem to exist in the traditional Chinese concepts themselves. — Possibility

Well, yes, of course my understanding is a "Western interpretation." As is yours.

So it reads more like this:

In caring for the state and governing its people, understanding our capabilities without acting in that capacity is uncertain - such is our relation to the Tao. How does this affect us? Does it hold us back from making decisions? Do we focus on attributing any apparent capability only to ourselves? Are we capable of governing without certainty in this regard? — Possibility

My understanding of the TTC and yours are so different, I don't think they have much in common. Maybe when I read the book you referenced I'll understand.

Your interpretation touches on a quality that greatly interests me. A method is being promoted that often sounds like a rejection of all method. But it is not that. The sage is somehow the good mother and the baby being cared for. The difficulty of making out the ways of those in the Way suggests that the demand to be simple is not simple to carry out.

Another question is how the competing method relates to the one that is being rejected. The bad method is displayed as the accumulation of its deleterious outcomes. It might come as a matter of surprise to some of them that they have been identified as adherents to a "yes -action." philosophy. In that sense, calling for Wu Wei is clearly an act that is not interested in hiding the virtue of their point of view.

In contradiction to the way I was just representing the Sage as playing a part in nurture, I think it is important to look at verse 5 where it seems nothing could be further from such an element:

Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs., the sage is ruthless, and treats the people as straw dogs.
Is not the space between heaven and earth like a bellows?
It is empty without being exhausted:
The more it works the more comes out.
Much speech leads inevitably to silence.
Better to hold fast to the void. — Translated by D.C. Lau

Are the opposing perspectives of what is beneficial to people and a harsh view of where it comes from something that is resolved into a more encompassing perspective?

The verse reminds me of line 5:13 of the Analects:

Zi Gong said: “What our Master has to say about the classics can be heard and also embodied. Our Master's words on the essence and the Heavenly Way, though not attainable, can be heard.” — Translated by A.C. Muller

Can Lao Tzu's sage be "embodied"?

Therefore, the policy of erudite is about void the mind of men and fill their stomachs. Debilitating their initiatives and strengthening their bones. Their constant effort is maintaining the population in ignorance and apathy
They make to the skilful people do not to act. Because there is nothing that it cannot be resolved with the practice of no act
Verse III

Thoughts: sadly this is one of the most common tools or practices used by governors. When the people is ignorant it is easier to convince them with fake news. If it were possible probably they would remove all pillars of philosophy and thinking. Sometimes it looks like the State and government are enemies of knowledge. This is why it is impossible to find happiness.

A method is being promoted that often sounds like a rejection of all method. — Valentinus

I'm not sure what "method" means in this context. Could you expand a bit. What is Lao Tzu's method?

An instructive story regarding wei wu wei, literally 'doing not-doing'.

Cook Ding Cuts Up an Ox

Cook Ding was cutting up an ox for Lord Wenhui. At every touch of his hand, every heave of his shoulder, every move of his feet, every thrust of his knee — zip, zoop! He slithered the knife along with a zing, and all was in perfect rhythm, as though he were performing the Dance of the Mulberry Grove or keeping time to the Jingshou Music.

'Ah, this is marvelous!' said Lord Wenhui. 'Imagine skill reaching such heights!'

Cook Ding laid down his knife and replied, 'What I care about is the Way [Dao], which goes beyond skill. When I first began cutting up oxen, all I could see was the ox itself. After three years I no longer saw the whole ox. And now, now I go at it by spirit and don't look with my eyes. Perception and understanding have come to a stop and spirit moves where it wants. I go along with the natural makeup, strike in the big hollows, guide the knife through the big openings, and follow things as they are. So I never touch the smallest ligament or tendon, much less a main joint.

'A good cook changes his knife once a year — because he cuts. A mediocre cook changes his knife once a month — because he hacks. I've had this knife of mine for nineteen years and I've cut up thousands of oxen with it, and yet the blade is as good as though it had just come from the grindstone. There are spaces between the joints, and the blade of the knife has really no thickness. If you insert what has no thickness into such spaces, then there's plenty of room — more than enough for the blade to play about it. That's why after nineteen years the blade of my knife is still as good as when it first came from the grindstone.

'However, whenever I come to a complicated place, I size up the difficulties, tell myself to watch out and be careful, keep my eyes on what I'm doing, work very slowly, and move the knife with the greatest subtlety, until — flop! the whole thing comes apart like a clod of earth crumbling to the ground. I stand there holding the knife and look all around me, completely satisfied and reluctant to move on, and then I wipe off the knife and put it away.'

'Excellent!' said Lord Wenhui. 'I have heard the words of Cook Ding and learned how to [nurture] life!'"

https://navigatingthezhuangzi.weebly.com/cook-ding-cuts-up-an-ox.html

It shows effortless action in rhythm with the way things are.
With skilled precision, not looking or hacking, the ox is cut according to its joints; its natural divisions.
Spirit moves to take the place of perception and understanding. It is spontaneous action.
His actions are effortless because there is no resistance when one moves with the ways things are rather than against them.

But just as in the case of dancers and sportsmen, this wasn't always the case.
It took him years of learning and continual practice.
That is, conscious action before he could move beyond skill. Doing then not-doing.

The story show that difficulties can still be encountered along the way.
There can be resistance.
Then he has to assess, observe and be careful.
Being attentive, moving the knife slowly to achieve a satisfactory result.
This is deliberate action.

Darkness

I went through various documents looking at how the words "dark" or "darkness were used." I don't have any point to make. I did it to satisfy my curiosity.

From Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy - Metaphysics in Chinese Philosophy

The Han dynasty collapsed in 220 CE, leading to a long period of fragmentation, instability, and uncertainty. The dominant philosophical movement is known as Xuanxue 玄學, “Profound Learning.” The term xuan means dark, obscure, or profound, but it also has a sense of what precedes any division, as it is used in the first chapter of the Laozi.

From Heshang Gong commentary on Verse 21

The Dao is obscure, dark, and without form. Within it is the
essence of reality. Spirit and radiance join together in one
thin line. Yin and yang blend together.


From Heshang Gong commentary on Verse 28

White is a metaphor for intense brightness. Black is a
metaphor for quiet stillness. Though someone may know
that they are full of light, they should understand the white
while holding onto quiet stillness, close themselves within
a darkness which cannot be seen, and be well aligned (with
Dao). This enables them to be a standard and guide for the
world. Then Virtue will always be with them.

From Verse 14 – Aldiss and Lombardo translation

The ancients who followed Tao: Dark, wondrous, profound, penetrating. Deep beyond knowing.


From Verse 41 – Aldiss and Lombardo translation

The bright road seems dark, The road forward seems to retreat, The level road seems rough.


From Wikipedia “Xuanxue.”

The name first compounds xuan (玄) "black,dark; mysterious, profound, abstruse, arcane." It occurs in the first chapter of the Tao Te Ching ("玄之又玄，眾妙之門"). The word xuan literally depicts a shade of deep, mystical, dark red. Tao Te Ching speaks of the Tao as Xuan, more specifically underpinning the depth, utter impenetrability, and the profound mystery of the Tao.

From Ursula K. LeGuin’s commentary on Verse 42

Lao Tzu keeps reminding us to value yin, the soft, the dark, the weak, earth, water, the Mother, the Valley.

From Ellen Marie Chen’s translation of Verse 6

The Valley Spirit (ku shen) is deathless,
It is called the dark Mare (hsüan p'in).
The door of the dark Mare,
Is called the root of heaven and earth.

From Ellen Marie Chen’s translation of Verse 10

In cleansing your mirror (lan) of the dark (hsüan),
Can you make it spotless?....

…To grow (chang) yet not to lord over (tsai),
This is called the dark virtue (yüan te).

From Ellen Marie Chen’s translation of Verse 15

On the decline of the great Tao,
There are humanity (jen) and righteousness (i)….
…When a nation is in darkness (hun) and disorder (lüan),
There are loyal ministers.

From Ellen Marie Chen’s translation of Verse 20

Worldly people (su jen) are luminous (chao);
I alone (tu) am dark (hun).
Worldly people are clear-sighted (ch'a);
I alone (tu) am dull (men),

From Ellen Marie Chen’s translation of Verse 57

In an empire with many prohibitions,
People are often poor;
When people have many sharp weapons,
The state is in great darkness (tzu hun);

One element that seems to be consistent in all the text is the disdain for pompous rulers and extravagant wealth. There is the often repeated relationship between placing too high of a value upon some ideas and things and the manifestation of unwanted results. We are doing something wrong and something has to change if we are to do better. The need for correction is shown on a grand scale in Dao De Jing and Zhuangzi has many instances where one individual chastises another on these grounds.

But it also is made clear that the correction cannot happen by simply replacing one table of values with another. While bad agendas lead to bad results, the problem is also caused by how we use agendas. While the logic of causes can explain the first problem, addressing the second is not as straightforward. It certainly is not as simple as finding an opposing value to promote as a replacement.

So there is an asymmetry between the two problems. Finding a way to proceed with a correction is a method that always keeps the asymmetry in view.

I don't understand. What is Lao Tzu's method?

Before going further along my line of thought, I would like to ask if it seems like complete blather or is there a point of departure where it made some sense and then stopped making sense.
If it is the former, I don't want to clog the thread with attempts to make the perspective more germane.
There are plenty of other elements to consider without it.

Before going further along my line of thought, I would like to ask if it seems like complete blather or is there a point of departure where it made some sense and then stopped making sense. — Valentinus

I don't know what "method" means in this context. What is a philosophical method? I guess it's how the philosopher goes about achieving his purpose. The actions he takes, or, the kinds of actions he takes. What is Lao Tzu's purpose? What actions did he take?

If this isn't a useful path, we don't have to go any further.

What is a philosophical method? — T Clark

I think it was a philosophical problem tied to an ethical crisis. There was a prevailing set of categories and standards and they were found to be deficient to the point that they had to be opposed, in the old fashioned sense that something needs to be stopped. But this alternative is not presented as an antithesis in the Hegelian sense of history. There is something seriously not continuous in Lao Tzu calling for a frame of reference that does not start from where everyone else started. The view doesn't reject traditional values but it changes how to understand why they are viable.

Verse 11 – Ellen Marie Chen

Thirty spokes share one hub to make a wheel.
Through its non-being (wu),
There is (yu) the use (yung) of the carriage.
Mold clay into a vessel (ch'i).
Through its non-being (wu),
There is (yu) the use (yung) of the vessel.
Cut out doors and windows to make a house.
Through its non-being (wu),
There is (yu) the use (yung) of the house.
Therefore in the being (yu-chih) of a thing,
There lies the benefit (li).
In the non-being (wu-chih) of a thing,
There lies its use (yun).

Derek Lin’s commentary on Verse 11

In a wheel, thirty spokes come together in one hub. The hole in the center of the hub - the place where it is empty - is what makes the wheel useful as part of a vehicle.
When we mix clay to create a container, we notice that it is the empty space in the center of the container that give it the usefulness of holding things.
When we cut open a wall to make space for windows and doors, we notice that it is these openings that make the room truly useful to us. If such openings did not exist, we would have no way of accessing the room!
Therefore, we can see how we create solid objects to provide us with benefits and convenience, but it is actually the emptiness formed by, or embedded in such objects that really provide them with functionality and usefulness.

I’ve never liked this verse. It doesn’t make sense to me. It seems like it’s changing the meaning of being and non-being. In the wheel, pot, or house, the non-being is created by being. In other uses we’ve seen, non-being creates being. Is this just a metaphor? A pun on “emptiness”. Saying the emptiness of a pot is similar to the emptiness of the Tao. The Tao is not nothing, it is no-thing.

I don’t get the being = benefit, non-being = use thing. Again – I would have thought that we use a hammer, one of the 10,000 things, part of being. How do we use the Tao?

I’ve never liked this verse. It doesn’t make sense to me — T Clark

Just a quick response:
To help me understand this, I replace 'being' with 'substance'.

Seems to be about how we function or what our purpose is in life.
What do we need to enable us to progress through life. Some might say the Tao or similar.

Our body as a container consisting of mere flesh and bones ( substance ) doesn't cut it.
To work, to be all we can be, we need our brain with mind, or spirit (non-substance).
To perceive, to think, to connect to others. To maintain the bodily functions together with the mind.
Some might be able to do this naturally, others need guidance. We are complex.

What does a hammer basically need to enable it to function or realise its purpose ?
'A hammer is a tool consisting of a weighted "head" fixed to a long handle that is swung to deliver an impact to a small area of an object.'
So, pretty much, simple substance.

Re the 'benefit' aspect.
From Mitchell - ' we work with being, but non-being is what we use'
From Ivanhoe - ' And so, what is there is the basis for profit; What is not there is the basis for use.

What is there is the basic material. It is kinda good to have. It is of benefit.

I hope to be given feedback to this and my earlier post re the wei wu wei story.