Out in the real world, it's about the argument from power. In the real world, the argument from power is always the most powerful one, "criticial thinking" be damned. — baker
Out in the real world, it's about the argument from power. — baker
Darwinism rules! — Wayfarer
In traditional theology and metaphysics, the natural was largely conceived as the evil, and the spiritual or supernatural as the good. In popular Darwinism, the good is the well-adapted, and the value of that to which the organism adapts itself is unquestioned or is measured only in terms of further adaptation. However, being well adapted to one’s surroundings is tantamount to being capable of coping successfully with them, of mastering the forces that beset one. Thus the theoretical denial of the spirit’s antagonism to nature – even as implied in the doctrine of interrelation between the various forms of organic life, including man – frequently amounts in practice to subscribing to the principle of man’s continuous and thoroughgoing domination of nature. Regarding reason as a natural organ does not divest it of the trend to domination or invest it with greater potentialities for reconciliation. On the contrary, the abdication of the spirit in popular Darwinism entails the rejection of any elements of the mind that transcend the function of adaptation and consequently are not instruments of self-preservation. Reason disavows its own primacy and professes to be a mere servant of natural selection. On the surface, this new empirical reason seems more humble toward nature than the reason of the metaphysical tradition. Actually, however, it is arrogant, practical mind riding roughshod over the ‘useless spiritual,’ and dismissing any view of nature in which the latter is taken to be more than a stimulus to human activity. The effects of this view are not confined to modern philosophy. — Max Horkheimer, The Eclipse of Reason
I am not sure that evolutionary biology is actually so spiritually abject. It is indeed absent of benevolent antropocentric antropomorphic character, but it still allows people to accept their impulse to seek dignity and decency — simeonz
Could you sketch out the difference, please?But again, 'critical thinking' in the original Platonic context, started with very different background assumptions to critical thinking in the current day and age. — Wayfarer
Could you sketch out the difference, please? — baker
Might makes right is the doctrine of modern Western capitalist countries as well, given that the pursuit of justice costs a lost of money. For many people, it is prohibitively expensive.Cases of 'might makes right' are clearly discernable in cultures without the human rights background of the West, conspicuously the People's Republic of China, where individual rights are held to be subordinate to the requirements of the State, as well as in other authoritarian and one-party states. — Wayfarer
Might makes right isn't necissarily the case even in warfare. — Count Timothy von Icarus
but how do you argue the case against someone who doesn't accept the power of rational persuasion?
Might isn't limited to brute force. Might is everything that other people can use as leverage against you, and that can be anything from brute force to blackmail.There is a wide body of literature in the foreign policy and security studies fields that shows that norms (e.g. rule of law, honor culture, etc.) shape and constrain the use of force. Even when there is total state breakdown and no monopoly on force, not every battlefield regresses into the maximum apocalyptic scenes of say, the Liberian Civil War.
Philosophy shapes thoughts, which in turn shapes actions. Might makes right isn't necissarily the case even in warfare. I'd argue it's generally not the case in day to day life. Otherwise, after a lifetime of weight lifting and martial arts practice, I wouldn't wait in lines anymore. — Count Timothy von Icarus
And further, how do you make sense of being the loser/victim/underdog in such a situation?I agree with you, but how do you argue the case against someone who doesn't accept the power of rational persuasion? — Wayfarer
IOW, Socrates' brother appealed to might makes right, and apparently had the wealth and the power to back up his challenge. No surprise there.One of my favorite parts of the Republic is when Socrates' brother stares down Thrasymachus and assures him that any wager made would be satisfied if he should lose.
Thrasymachus left the room shortly afterwards. — Valentinus
[337D] “Then what if I show you a different answer about justice,” he said, “beyond all these, better than they are? What penalty would you think you deserve to suffer?” “What other penalty,” I said, “than the one it’s fitting for someone who doesn’t have knowledge to suffer? And it’s fitting, no doubt, for him to learn from someone who has knowledge. So I think I too deserve to suffer this penalty.”
“You’re amusing,” he said, “but in addition to learning, pay a penalty in money too.” “Okay, whenever I get any,” I said. “He’s got it,” said Glaucon. “So as far as money’s concerned, Thrasymachus, speak up, since all of us will chip in for Socrates.” [337E] “I imagine you will,” he said, “so Socrates can go on with his usual routine: he won’t answer but when somebody else answers he’ll grab hold of his statement and cross-examine him.” “Most skillful one,” I said, “how could anyone give an answer who in the first place doesn’t know and doesn’t claim to know, and then too, even if he supposes something about these things, would be banned from saying what he believes by no inconsiderable man? So it’s more like it [338A] for you to speak, since you do claim to know and to have something to say. So don’t do anything else but gratify me by answering, and don’t be grudging about teaching Glaucon here as well as the others.” And when I’d said these things, Glaucon and the others kept begging him not to do otherwise. And Thrasymachus was obviously longing to speak in order to be well thought of, believing that he had an answer of overwhelming beauty. But he made a pretense of battling eagerly for me to be the one that [338B] answered. But making an end of this, he gave way, and then said, “This is the wisdom of Socrates; he himself is not willing to teach, but he goes around learning from others and doesn’t even pay them any gratitude.” “In saying that I learn from others,” I said, “you tell the truth, Thrasymachus, but when you claim that I don’t pay for it in full with gratitude, you lie, for I pay all that is in my power. I have the power only to show appreciation, since I don’t have money. And how eagerly I do this, if anyone seems to me to speak well, you’ll know very well right away when [338C] you answer, for I imagine you’ll speak well.” “Then listen,” he said. “I assert that what’s just is nothing other than what’s advantageous to the stronger. So why don’t you show appreciation? But you won’t be willing to.” “First I need to understand what you mean,” I said, “since now I don’t yet know. You claim that what’s advantageous to the stronger is just. Now whatever do you mean by this, Thrasymachus? For I’m sure you’re not saying this sort of thing: that if Polydamas the no-holds-barred wrestler is stronger than we are, and bull’s meat is advantageous to him for his body, this food [338D] would also be advantageous, and at the same time just, for us who are weaker than he is.” — Plato. Republic, translated by Joe Sachs
In short:
Officially, in philosophy, it's about the power of the argument.
Out in the real world, it's about the argument from power. In the real world, the argument from power is always the most powerful one, "criticial thinking" be damned.
But philosophers are aware of that, are they not?
So why do they still advocate for criticial thinking? — baker
Not at all, given that two people can be presented with the same argument, and one feels forced to accept it (because he thinks it's so irresistibly good), and the other one doesn't (because he thinks it's dumb).Likewise, a sound argument has the same power of persuasion that a loaded gun's muzzle pushed against the temple has. One is always, without exception, forced to accept the conclusion of a sound argument.
It seems that either way - whether you're in the presence of a philosopher presenting a good argument or whether you're under duress to believe something - we're being forced on pain of injury, death, or looking like a fool. — TheMadFool
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