I see your point. Perhaps it is for the indulgence of seeing oneself as somehow better/ inflating the ego but what bothers me is that if this type of love doesn’t exist, and the mind can only work in a “transactional” sense... and can be reduced to simple interactions of chemical “give and take” then we must dispose of any form or notion of consciousness that isn’t based firmly on materialistic mechanical scientific objectivism. — Benj96

This is quite a leap. It's not clear how the above follows.

Such a reduction as you mention above can simply be avoided by conceptualizing "romantic love" in a less utopian, less idealistic way.

Are you familiar with the reception history of the Minnesang?

The mystery as it were is sapped out of the human psyche and replaced with very cold hard objective grounds for the existence of a subject.

You know what else is very cold? Having abortions, damaging one's health with hormonal contraceptives, having children one does not want or cannot afford, going bankrupt, contracting dangerous diseases, missing out on opportunities to earn a living -- things that one can expect to accompany "romantic love".

That’s why I believe this romanticised “delusion” may exist. Also in order to use the term “delusion” I would imagine you would have to have some superior knowledge of what the true “reality” is from which we all deviate when we are “deluded”. Please elaborate on such a reality as I’m sure the world would find this a very revolutionary discovery

Oh.
Of course such a delusion exists. In their sober moments, a person sees and admits that they've been behaving foolishly when they indulged in "being in love".

This is partly why I imagine the privileged west persists in looking down on/ shunning the more aggressive/ inhumane activities that go on in third world countries. Because it is a “privilege” to be outraged - meaning it doesn't effect you enough to deplete the “shock factor” and so you can afford empathy.

I can imagine if you saw crimes every day you would have an apathy toward them that someone might misinterpret as you having no empathy. The usual “how can you just sit by and let this happen?” As you quite rightly said... there’s only so much empathy reserve. What is normal for one is abnormal for another. — Benj96

It's even worse if you live in a 3rd world country. You don't often don't see the gravity of the problem until you're outside. If your born seeing misery, it's often hard to comprehend it. So yes, absolutely.

The question of "how can let that happen?", is a good one. It applies essentially to everybody all the time. Even in "first world" countries, you don't have to go far to see ugly things. Maybe generally not at the level of a developing country, but bad too.

The only thing that possibly comes to mind is to find a way to ameliorate the situation, if possible, otherwise I think it can be too much to think about all the time.

Having abortions, damaging one's health with hormonal contraceptives — baker

You could say that about any medication. They all have deleterious side effects. Does that mean we shouldn’t medicate our bodies with anything that may have some form of damaging effects in order to get a desired physiological outcome - like temporary reversible infertility or to prevent diseases.

Having abortions — baker

Well I’d imagine that depends on which woman you talk to and her personal circumstances as to her mental health, how the conception came about, the resources available to her to care for a child and whether she is fit to be a mother etc. I’m sure this is rather contentious subject amongst the general public and women at large but I prefer to leave it to them and their partners, considering it is their body that after all this affects and not mens. Certainly not a definitive closed argument but ongoing debate

quote="baker;521954"]going bankrupt, contracting dangerous diseases,[/quote]

This is a little bit selective/ cherry picked I mean the majority of parents don’t tend to go bankrupt from having a child.

As for contracting dangerous diseases again this isn’t specific to just sexual Inter course. In fact the amount of diseases you can get from sex is dwarfed by the amount you can contract from the rest of your life: diet, toxic habits like drug use, travel etc. Especially if you are practising safe sex or in a longterm monogamous relationship.

All the things you have described can certainly occur in the context of “romantic love” then again they tend not to in such a large amount together and even alone each only occurs on occasion they aren’t necessarily the most common possibilities.

Which leads me to just see this as more of a personal dislike/ bias against the concept of “romantic” love. Which is fine. But cherry picking isn’t the most objective argument one could offer

All the things you have described can certainly occur in the context of “romantic love” then again they tend not to in such a large amount together and even alone each only occurs on occasion they aren’t necessarily the most common possibilities.

Which leads me to just see this as more of a personal dislike/ bias against the concept of “romantic” love. Which is fine. But cherry picking isn’t the most objective argument one could offer — Benj96

Those things are a potential blemish on the face of "romantic love". A face, if it indeed should be so wonderful as you say, should be completely free of blemishes. One blemish is one too many.

Suffering the negative side effects of an antiviral vaccine, for example, is quite another matter. One probably didn't vaccinate oneself out of some romantic, idealistic notions about life, but approached the matter in a fairly rational, cool, pragmatic manner, weighing the costs and benefits. Distinctly different from the way one approaches "romantic love."



Again: Are you familiar with the reception history of the Minnesang?
It's an instructive example of how notions of romantic love were once understood criticially despite being indulged in, and how that criticial distance became lost over time.

What happen to “A cigar is just a cigar”

To ask why to love is to define the purpose of Good and Evil.

Best example is questioning if 1 + 1 truly = 2

It can’t get any more basic than that.

This example is to show our ability to acknowledge the answer to be the end of the journey.

If you can’t acknowledge the end there is no point to question because you’ll find yourself in a infinite loop.

To question is to start a journey of your own.

To answer is to achieve satisfaction and peace within yourself.

Maybe, the answer is to just appreciate Love and let it be.

If you want to be a true intellectual you need to learn to recognize the end of the journey. Be mindful not to create the illusion of answer.

. A face, if it indeed should be so wonderful as you say, should be completely free of blemishe — baker

I never made any indication as to romantic or true love being “perfect” and free from wrongs/ failures. There are always blemishes. We are all imperfect. Perfection is untenable. But you can have a deep love despite these things that’s what makes it worthwhile for example if we all wait for this unblemished perfection I’m afraid we will be waiting forever

I never made any indication as to romantic or true love being “perfect” and free from wrongs/ failures. There are always blemishes. We are all imperfect. Perfection is untenable. But you can have a deep love despite these things that’s what makes it worthwhile for example if we all wait for this unblemished perfection I’m afraid we will be waiting forever — Benj96

Then the sort of idealistic self-sacrificing love that you speak of in the OP is unavailable to humans.

Then the sort of idealistic self-sacrificing love that you speak of in the OP is unavailable to humans. — baker

How so? I think we may be talking cross- purposes here. No mother is perfect but that doesn’t stop her from constantly trying to do right by her children. She loves them and wants the best for them even if that means that sometimes she commits wrongful acts or incidentally hurts their feelings.

I think it’s the capacity to look beyond personal shortcomings that arrives at an appreciation for love. How one expresses their love for another is often at odds with their intentions. But it doesn’t subtract their motives. That’s why forgiveness and conflict resolution is intrinsic to long lasting compassion and love.

In a world where we are always prey to our own failings and imperfections one can only do their best. I’m not indicating that true self sacrificing love requires a utopian backdrop. Because if we lived in the pure ideal then sacrifice or “detriment to ones self for the benefit of others” would not exist and not be necessary.

Love always risks heartbreak; yet, it is written, 'hearts are made whole by breaking'. (Lost, after all, is the future tense of loved.)

:death: :flower:

For me, friendship (i.e. mutual care-pleasure-advantage ... re: I-You) is the highest form of love, and solidarity (for justice) is the highest form of friendship — 180 Proof

I love it when good ideas are put into even better words. Bravo! Keep it coming, sir/madam, as the case maybe. :lol:

@180 Proof's words in his post here said something that touched a chord in me to wit, love has a past tense - loved - which, quite literally, demolishes, takes a wrecking ball to, all great love stories, including but not limited to that between a man and a woman; after all, the claim is that true love never dies but then a past tense for love?? It doesn't add up. Love is, in all probability, an illusion the mind creates to fool itself, a rationalization as it were to make itself look bigger than it actually is. My two cents.

let's try it without wine. There is no need of going to extremes. Though I think you are on the right way. Love is about giving, not to be confused with sexual attraction or the state of being in love, which is about wanting. The problem is that we are using the same word for all of that. I think that love is possible through understanding and not through passion, which the old sages deplored it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just the same word is being used for different things, the same happens with the word beauty