• spirit-salamander
    268
    As is well known, Hume's guillotine forbids a derivation of ought from is. But that does not mean that it cannot be derived at all.

    One should first distinguish between a morally non-binding ought and a morally binding one.

    Then you have to say that you can derive an ought from a will, to put it more precisely, from another will, a will different from one's own.

    The foreign will is to be understood as a request, claim, demand or command, all of which only another person can do.

    Since I am German, my reasoning comes from the logic and semantics of the German verb "sollen", which translates to ought or should in English.

    Almost all grammars of German explain "sollen" or ought by saying that there must be another personal agent who wants something from you. So, if A ought to do X, this implies that someone wants A to do X.

    For example: I go to the doctor and he tells me to take pills twice a day. Then I later tell my wife I ought to take pills twice a day. It is important to add that it is not just a recommendation of the doctor, it is already more, so more binding.

    The question that now arises is, how can I distinguish morally binding ought from morally non-binding ought? Because not everything that people demand of me is really binding.

    Let's take the concrete example of when a person is lying on the street seriously injured and is just unable to help herself. But she calls out to me to help her, as I am just in the visible vicinity.

    Here, any normal and reasonable person would say that there is a moral ought in me. To whom can this particular ought be traced?

    1. To the injured person, who has nothing left at the moment but her being an end in herself. This would be the position of the German philosopher Gerold Prauss, who says the following according to my rough translation: "Thus, ought is nothing but the synthetic result of the encounter of subjects, each of which is a knowing end in itself in relation to the other, a knowing willing and thus also a knowing demanding." It proves for Prauss to be the case that the order of morality in general, is conditioned by a very peculiar situation: a claim to morality is grounded only when the person handled is precisely not in a position to help herself and as long as she remains in this position. This self-help represents then the decisive criterion. When we do not help someone in need, we do not solely prove to be non-meritorious but we commit an evil, whatever our maxims might be.

    2. Or to society or God, who additionally demand something from me or give a binding note to the demand of the injured.

    If I bring in God or society, my ought could be reduced to a have to or must.

    Here is the logical semantic scheme for the must:

    (1) A must do X for Y to happen, and
    (2) A wants Y to happen.
    ______________
    (3) So A must do X.

    In concrete terms, this means that I do not want to be punished by God or society, so I must help the injured person.

    So not only ought, but also must can be normative. Here is a quote from the German action theorist Peter Stemmer, roughly translated again by me:

    "To express a normative situation linguistically, we usually use a "must" sentence: "You must, in order to catch the 10 o'clock train, leave now." With these formulations, we might say, strictly speaking, only a must of a necessary condition is brought into language. But it is presupposed in each case that the corresponding wanting/willing is present. It would be pointless to tell someone who does not want to catch the 10 o'clock train that he must leave now in order to catch the train. That he wants to do so is assumed in the situation, and thus it is presupposed that the must is normative."
  • javi2541997
    5.8k
    Since I am German, my reasoning comes from the logic and semantics of the German verb "sollen", which translates to ought or should in English.spirit-salamander

    Could it be a problem of interpretation or vocabulary the morally bending ought?

    (1) A must do X for Y to happen, and
    (2) A wants Y to happen.
    ______________
    (3) So A must do X.
    spirit-salamander

    I guess your syllogism is not good here because there are only two parts while a syllogism needs three:
    S: subject of the conclusion.
    P: predicate of the conclusion.
    M: the middle term.

    Nevertheless, I guess your syllogism fits the DARAPTI type:
    1) The minor premise must be affirmative.
    2) The conclusion must be particular.

    I prefer quote @tim wood here because he is better than me in explaining syllogisms.
  • khaled
    3.5k

    a claim to morality is grounded only when the person handled is precisely not in a position to help herself and as long as she remains in this position.spirit-salamander

    An interesting angle but I can think of scenarios where someone who can’t help themselves do something wants you to do it, and yet the ought is not binding. If you work as a teacher’s assistant and a classmate asks you to steal the exam answers and share them is that a binding ought? The classmate can’t accomplish this task so it seems to fit the bill. There are countless other scenarios.

    When we do not help someone in need, we do not solely prove to be non-meritorious but we commit an evilspirit-salamander

    The problem is when the person in question needs you to commit an evil.
  • tim wood
    9.3k
    (1) A must do X for Y to happen, and
    (2) A wants Y to happen.
    ______________
    (3) So A must do X.
    spirit-salamander

    What's missing here is an "if." Then it becomes a hypothetical syllogism. Without the if, there is no bridge from "want" to "must."

    Hume's position here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem):
    ---------------
    "Hume discusses the problem in book III, part I, section I of his book, A Treatise of Human Nature (1739):

    "In every system of morality, which I have hitherto met with, I have always remarked, that the author proceeds for some time in the ordinary way of reasoning, and establishes the being of a God, or makes observations concerning human affairs; when of a sudden I am surprised to find, that instead of the usual copulations of propositions, is, and is not, I meet with no proposition that is not connected with an ought, or an ought not. This change is imperceptible; but is, however, of the last consequence. For as this ought, or ought not, expresses some new relation or affirmation, 'tis necessary that it should be observed and explained; and at the same time that a reason should be given, for what seems altogether inconceivable, how this new relation can be a deduction from others, which are entirely different from it. But as authors do not commonly use this precaution, I shall presume to recommend it to the readers; and am persuaded, that this small attention would subvert all the vulgar systems of morality, and let us see, that the distinction of vice and virtue is not founded merely on the relations of objects, nor is perceived by reason."
    ------------------

    And I find in this a gigantic implied "if." But what is the conclusion of Hume's argument? It appears to be that if "ought" cannot be got from "is," then morality "is not founded merely on the relations of objects, nor is perceived by reason."

    Possibly by "reason" Hume meant "logic." But he certainly could not have meant what most of us now understand by reason. For the conspicuously obvious reason that we reason all the day long about what we ought to be doing and even thinking. Equally obviously "not founded on the relations of objects."

    What is neglected is consideration of right and good. But neglected does not mean non-existent. As I read it here, Hume is merely arguing that "vice and virtue" are not found in the machinery of either ordinary science or ordinary logic, and by extension, that those who did find it there were wrong.

    He uses "founded" and "perceived." But in this nothing prevents either logic or science from being used as tools to consider matters of right and good, and certainly to judge and weigh arguments about the right and good.

    Hume seems to be warning us not to look in the wrong place for something that is not there in any case. If anything more, someone will kindly point it out.
  • javi2541997
    5.8k
    What's missing here is an "if." Then it becomes a hypothetical syllogism. Without the if, there is no bridge from "want" to "must."tim wood

    Thanks Tim for the properly explanation and argument :up: :100:
  • spirit-salamander
    268
    @javi2541997

    (1) a must (necessary condition) do x for y to happen.
    (2) That y happens is something a wants.
    The conclusion is then:
    (3) So a must (normatively) do x for something to happen that a wants.

    The must from (1) expresses only a necessary relation: y happens only if x is given. To this must a normative component is added in the conclusion through (2). And it is exactly this relation of will that makes this must a normative must, a must that concerns a and that is connected with a pressure to act.
  • tim wood
    9.3k
    Translating "must" then, as if you want y to happen, then you "must' do x.

    Else how do you avoid the conclusion that I must do or act in some way to achieve all of my wants. And I have lots of wants I have no intention of acting on.
  • javi2541997
    5.8k


    Check this website, you will see what are you missing about, I learned a lot since the last month I currently visiting it: Aristotle Syllogisms (Rules)
  • spirit-salamander
    268
    An interesting angle but I can think of scenarios where someone who can’t help themselves do something wants you to do it, and yet the ought is not binding. If you work as a teacher’s assistant and a classmate asks you to steal the exam answers and share them is that a binding ought? The classmate can’t accomplish this task so it seems to fit the bill. There are countless other scenarios.khaled

    I guess you have to commit to cases where it's a matter of life and death. Thus, the ought always becomes binding when the other person will soon die without immediate assistance from others.

    The problem is when the person in question needs you to commit an evil.khaled

    I think the injured person's claim cannot go beyond their own injury.

    But you're right, there are certainly cases where there could be tension.
  • spirit-salamander
    268
    Else how do you avoid the conclusion that I must do or act in some way to achieve all of my wants. And I have lots of wants I have no intention of acting on.tim wood

    Okay, this would be another premise, that there needs to be a strong interest in what is wanted. It must be such that the absence of it would be a negative thing to be avoided at all costs.
  • spirit-salamander
    268
    Check this website, you will see what are you missing about, I learned a lot since the last month I currently visiting it: Aristotle Syllogisms (Rules)javi2541997

    Thank you for the reference.

    But my question would be whether every logically structured argument must have an Aristotelian structure to be valid?
  • javi2541997
    5.8k
    But my question would be whether every logically structured argument must have an Aristotelian structure to be valid?spirit-salamander

    No! I like your argument and post. Nevertheless, I thought you would like some advises or tricks to use syllogisms. Sorry if I sound mean or cocky. It was not my intention.
  • spirit-salamander
    268
    It appears to be that if "ought" cannot be got from "is," then morality "is not founded merely on the relations of objects, nor is perceived by reason."tim wood

    Hume seems to be warning us not to look in the wrong place for something that is not there in any case. If anything more, someone will kindly point it out.tim wood

    It is said that only if there is at least one ought in the premises, then the ought in the conclusion is justified.
    My point was, one can extend this. Namely, that there merely has to be a will in the premise in order to get an ought in the conclusion. Because an ought is just a will from a different perspective.

    But if there is neither ought nor will in the premise, there can be no ought in the conclusion.
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.