https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acedia

I'm having a hard time pointing out what apathy may be about; anyone care to elucidate? — Shawn

Yeah, i've been thinking about for a bit and read the wiki baker referred to, which was rather un-illuminating apart from maybe the following sentence:

"Another sign is a lack of caring, of being unfeeling about things, whether that be your appearance, hygiene, your relationships, your community's welfare, the world's welfare etc.; all of this, Norris relates, is connected to the hopelessness and vague unease that arises from having too many choices, lacking true commitment, of being "a slave from within".

It think the bolded part is a step in the right direction. I think it's not just laziness as an 'uncaused temperamental disposition', but seems to me to be caused by being overwhelmed by a seemingly insurmountable amount of things that need to be done to get where you ideally want to be... to the point that you come to view everything as pointless as you realize your ideal can't be met. So I'd say it's a sort of frustrated or burned-out idealism.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheia

Apathy might be that place people go between delusions.

Apathy might be that place people go between delusions. — synthesis

What makes you say that? I've had some premonition that apathy is expressed due to too much rationality.

What makes you say that? I've had some premonition that apathy is expressed due to too much rationality. — Shawn

Eventually, reality catches up with folks and they realize that their path hit a dead-end. This throws them into the abyss for awhile until they climb their way out and seek out their next path. If their new path is good for them, apathy disappears.

Bad feelings of all varieties are a great feedback mechanism. If it doesn't feel good and it's not creating forward progress, it's not good. So the choice becomes, do nothing (apathy) or move forward.

Well, empirically I've heard of a patient with his amygdala damaged who lived in a state of apathy due to not being able to decide anything.

Poor guy couldn't choose what shoes to wear in the morning.

I suspect that apathy is usually if not always the result of subtle forms of spiritual oppression that someone has endured for a long period of time. And yes, in some cases this can result in tremendous pain.

I’m kinda skeptical that apathy exists in practice. I think this precisely because what normally seems like stereotypical apathetic behavior to us does seem to be motivated by pain and the cruelty of life. But, it actually strikes me as paradoxically ironic to say that pain causes apathy because if someone cares about pain then it seems that they are not apathetic by definition.

True, true. Yet, I think it has to do also with some kind of damp affective feel towards stimuli.

I've been told recently that apathy arises from too much pain. — Shawn

Who told you this and why ? What kind of pain ?

Before anyone points out that the truth lays with rather depression, I don't really buy into that. — Shawn

Quite right too. Apathy is independent of depression and v.v.
Having said that, the two can co-exist in a person.

Apathy also sounds distinct from being 'lazy'. — Shawn

Yes, it does. But are you too 'lazy' or 'apathetic' to actually go and find some definitions and meanings over and above your opinions ? :chin:

I'm having a hard time pointing out what apathy may be about; anyone care to elucidate? — Shawn

Why are you having a hard time ? Isn't it easy enough to google, as others have done ?
Just kidding - it's good to talk :cool:

I've had some premonition that apathy is expressed due to too much rationality. — Shawn

How so ?
This 'too much' with reference to 'pain' and 'thinking' - is this related to a mental health disorder? Overthinking past, present or future scenarios > anxiety. Thinking too much about self, what?

Apathy might be that place people go between delusions. — synthesis

Schizophrenia ?
Why can't apathy exist even when experiencing delusions ?

Eventually, reality catches up with folks and they realize that their path hit a dead-end. This throws them into the abyss for awhile until they climb their way out and seek out their next path. If their new path is good for them, apathy disappears. — synthesis

Depression ? They can't see how to go on...overwhelmed by the world...their circumstances...
If long-term or clinical, then it isn't always possible to climb own way out or seek a path.
Chronic or deep apathy needs to be treated first.
Also, even if new path is good, there can still be occasions of low level apathy.

In cases such as Alzheimers or a neurodegenerative disease...where the capacity to think or change is extremely limited, life goes on - with physical and mental pain. There seems no choice to take a new path. However, action can still be taken to alleviate - to try to make life worth living...

I’m kinda skeptical that apathy exists in practice. — TheHedoMinimalist

OK - is that because you haven't experienced or recognised it in yourself or others.
It is considered a mental state:
https://patient.info/signs-symptoms/apathy

Lately, my experience of apathy has been related to covid restrictions.
I call it being 'scunnered'...
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scunnered

I suspect that apathy is usually if not always the result of subtle forms of spiritual oppression that someone has endured for a long period of time. And yes, in some cases this can result in tremendous pain. — Adam Hilstad

Interesting. What kinds of spiritual oppression are you thinking about ?
And what kind of tremendous pain is a result of it ?

Schizophrenia ?
Why can't apathy exist even when experiencing delusions ? — Amity

Yep - I have worked in the area of mental health and addictions for 30 years. Apathy/anhedonia and social withdrawal are classic negative symptoms associated with the condition. Among the classic positive symptoms are auditory hallucinations, movement disorders, disorganised behaviour.

There are a multiplicity of reasons for apathy to take hold of someone - too many choices; not enough choices; trauma; substance misuse; chronic physical illness; mental ill health; excessive rumination; decadence; hopelessness. It can often be an understandable response to experience.

I imagine also we sometimes use the word apathy to describe someone who doesn't share our enthusiasms.

I have worked in the area of mental health and addictions for 30 years. Apathy/anhedonia and social withdrawal are classic negative symptoms associated with the condition. Among the classic positive symptoms are auditory hallucinations, movement disorders, disorganised behaviour. — Tom Storm

In another lifetime, I worked in mental health - and I have forgotten so much of it.
However, it is still very much in or on my mind.

There are a multiplicity of reasons for apathy to take hold of someone - too many choices; not enough choices; trauma; substance misuse; chronic physical illness; mental ill health; excessive rumination; decadence; hopelessness. It can often be an understandable response to experience. — Tom Storm

Yes. We are a complex animal, are we not ?

I imagine we sometimes use the word apathy to describe someone who doesn't share our enthusiasms. — Tom Storm

:smile: Scurrilous rascals !!

Hi Amity, in my own case I felt I was being told that the meaning or purpose of my life was invalid, or even wrong in some way. This led to feelings of invisibility, helplessness and isolation.

[Apathy]...the result of subtle forms of spiritual oppression that someone has endured for a long period of time. And yes, in some cases this can result in tremendous pain. — Adam Hilstad

I felt I was being told that the meaning or purpose of my life was invalid, or even wrong in some way. This led to feelings of invisibility, helplessness and isolation. — Adam Hilstad

Sorry to hear that.
It sounds like a kind of spiritual abuse within the family, parents or church.
A difference in the way you want to live your life, moral outlook or belief system.
Like a strict and narrow cult practice where members ignore or expel unbelievers.
A traumatic separation.
People can lose any 'fight', energy and willpower to defend themselves.

Thanks for sharing some of your experience.
Hopefully, you have recovered well from that period in your life.
The word 'apathy' seems too light to cover that...

Apathy might be that place people go between delusions.
— synthesis
Schizophrenia ?
Why can't apathy exist even when experiencing delusions ? — Amity

No reason...we're all just making it up as we go.

Eventually, reality catches up with folks and they realize that their path hit a dead-end. This throws them into the abyss for awhile until they climb their way out and seek out their next path. If their new path is good for them, apathy disappears.
— synthesis

Depression ? They can't see how to go on...overwhelmed by the world...their circumstances...
If long-term or clinical, then it isn't always possible to climb own way out or seek a path.
Chronic or deep apathy needs to be treated first.
Also, even if new path is good, there can still be occasions of low level apathy.

In cases such as Alzheimers or a neurodegenerative disease...where the capacity to think or change is extremely limited, life goes on - with physical and mental pain. There seems no choice to take a new path. However, action can still be taken to alleviate - to try to make life worth living... — Amity

I am not sure very much is understood about how cognition functions, so I'll leave that to somebody with a larger imagination than mine.

I am not sure very much is understood about how cognition functions, so I'll leave that to somebody with a larger imagination than mine. — synthesis

How do you measure 'imagination' ? :wink:

If you go to Amazon and search for an imagination slide rule. You'll be all set. :)

On it :smile:

Thanks Amity. I’m engaging with the philosophy community again, which means I’m recovering.

Excellent.
Yeah, you need to be strong for this lark :wink:

True, true. Yet, I think it has to do also with some kind of damp affective feel towards stimuli. — Shawn

I would say that if someone has a damp affective feel towards all kinds of stimuli indiscriminately then I would speculate that this would have a biological cause. A person who wants to reduce suffering in their life would probably only want to dampen their reaction to unpleasant stimuli and maybe also pleasurable stimuli that could lead to the creation of suffering-causing desires. So, they probably would become apathetic towards the stimuli of feeling cold because that stimuli is unpleasant and they would probably become apathetic towards the stimuli involved in falling in love because while those stimuli are pleasurable they also have great potential to cause suffering. But, those people probably wouldn’t be apathetic towards the stimuli of something like listening to music because that sort of stimuli doesn’t seem to have a potential for suffering.

I'm having a hard time pointing out what apathy may be about; anyone care to elucidate? — Shawn

Personally, I’m kind of an advocate for apathy. Within reasonable limits I find it useful for living a happy life. I try not to care about things that don’t involve me directly, or that I’m powerless to change. At least I try to not care that much. There just isn’t a point in getting all worked up over something that ultimately doesn’t matter. I couldn’t care less about Elon Musk hosting SNL, or any of the other sensationalist bullshit.

I also find apathy to be freeing. It’s easier to do what you truly want, and say what you truly feel when you don’t care about possibly being ridiculed, or offending someone, etc. The Nine Inch Nails line “Nothing can stop me now, cause I don’t care anymore,” illustrates what I’m getting at.

I’m kind of an advocate for apathy. Within reasonable limits I find it useful for living a happy life. I try not to care about things that don’t involve me directly, or that I’m powerless to change. At least I try to not care that much. — Pinprick

Yes. This is the more positive sense of the word 'apathy'.
Similar to the Stoic notion of 'indifference'; also the 'Serenity Prayer', with or without 'God'.
Earlier @180 Proof linked to the wiki article on 'Apatheia':
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/532594

It’s easier to do what you truly want, and say what you truly feel when you don’t care about possibly being ridiculed, or offending someone, etc — Pinprick

Probably it is easier but, clearly, it isn't always wise to say what you truly feel in certain circumstances.
Like telling your boss to fuck off or the surgeon operating on you that her breath stinks...
Judgement still needs to be exercised if that kind of freedom to offend is to be 'virtuous' rather than 'vicious'...
If behaviour comes from a place of honesty as in integrity rather than raw, unthinking bluntness, then it is more likely to increase wellbeing for all concerned, apathetic or otherwise.

Even if you have adopted the shield of 'indifference' so that potentially harmful words bounce off you, that is not the case for everyone.
Attentive care still required even if you 'Don't Care'...it makes sense to care-fully choose who, what and how you direct your attention towards.

It is a useful strategy even when listening to your 'inner' critical voice telling you that you are rubbish.
Or painful memories suddenly arising.
I tell it to ''Just Stop !'' and replace with something positive - a walk on the wild side :cool:

The mind and the way we think - to reach a state of well-being-ness...
Nobody said it was easy.

Addendum:
Re holding the 'I Don't Care' attitude.

It can be harmful to us depending on context and why we adopt it.
If the defence mechanism is activated and there is a withdrawal from an increasingly tense discussion, we might not be doing ourselves any favours.
Sometimes it takes strength to 'take on' our perceived adversaries.
I have struggled with this, at times, on TPF.
It takes a stepping back - not a complete withdrawal - to take time and think.

To examine what has been said and how it has affected you.
It is easy to jump to the wrong conclusions about someone depending on how you interpret their words or tone in response.
I try to read and re-read the situation carefully.
Why do I feel like telling the person to fuck off.
Why the instant wish to dismiss...
That needs to be addressed and not shrugged off.

If I am to maintain any kind of respect for myself or someone else, the tension has to be resolved.
This might require a painful re-adjustment of attitude and thought.
Perhaps applied perspective and sense of humour...
Turn it around.

And yes, in the long run...from a distance...none of it might matter at all.
Let's face it.
I'm really just here avoiding housework.
I really 'Don't Care' about the ironing...

Yeah, apathy certainly has its downsides. I mean, in excess you get people like Richard Ramirez. I guess I just contrast this apathetic lifestyle with its opposite; the overly-sensitive empath who becomes emotionally distraught over every little thing. To me the former is just more appealing. But there’s still negatives as well. I’m not a very considerate person, and probably come off as being stiff or cold. I have no friends, and really don’t care to have any. This is my only type of “social media” account I have, and I essentially work from home, so I don’t really even have coworkers that I talk with.

But for some reason I manage quite well with just my family and various forms of entertainment. But regardless, when I see how much unhappiness is caused by being emotionally invested in worldly/others affairs and others expectations, where we constantly compare ourselves to each other and tie our feelings of worth to faux popularity and tribalism I just don’t see a reason to do that. For me happiness comes from within, and is achieved through being egoistic. I’m sure lots of people disagree, and would not envy my lifestyle, and that’s fine. Ultimately what matters is being happy, at least in my opinion.

It can often be an understandable response to experience. — Tom Storm

A psychologist saying this?? Surely you don't mean it. Else they'll draw and quarter you!

I imagine also we sometimes use the word apathy to describe someone who doesn't share our enthusiasms.

Yeah. Externalizing rocks.