What Israel could have done is not turned Gaza into a concentration camp. The Palestinian women and children being slaughtered are victims— and you’re essentially blaming them for actions of Hamas. Again, if that’s truly the standard being used, then what Hamas did on October 7th was equally justified. Do we take that seriously? — Mikie
It’s time for the U.S. to tell Israel to put the following offer on the table to Hamas: total Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, in return for all the Israeli hostages and a permanent cease-fire under international supervision, including U.S., NATO and Arab observers. And no exchange of Palestinians in Israeli jails. — It’s Time for the U.S. to Give Israel Some Tough Love- Thomas Friedman
Same question to you: what do the Israelis do? — tim wood
Whatever Gaza is, don't the Gazans bear some responsibility for that? — tim wood
And if the Palestinians and Hamas wanted to stop the bloodshed, are there not some steps they could take that likely would lead to a rapid de-escalation? — tim wood
I did, then every Arab country should be bombing Israel, which has killed FAR more Palestinians than Hamas has killed Israelis. — Mikie
Just curious if it's "parity" would the Israeli government be justified in raping, beheading, and mutilating Palestinians in the exact same numbers in an unprovoked event at a time of their choosing? — schopenhauer1
They have the power to do this, whilst minimizing their own casualties, try to regain their hostages, so they are doing so. — schopenhauer1
Don’t forget that Arab countries did try to destroy Israel at one point..a few times actually. — schopenhauer1
Before or after they stole their land? — Mikie
Don’t forget that Arab countries did try to destroy Israel at one point..a few times actually.
— schopenhauer1
Before or after they stole their land? — Mikie
There was no Arab or Palestinian Arab nationalist movement. In the first two decades of Zionist immigration, most of the opposition came from the wealthy landowners and noblemen who feared they would have to fight the Jews for the land in the future.
your first priority is the crime itself, and not its antecedents whatever they may be. — tim wood
At least the New Testament has the great insight that it has several Gospels, hence someone clearly understood that the written story of the life of Jesus would be extremely crucial to the whole religion, so better to have several accounts. But do Christians use the Gospels together and come to conclusions then to what really happened? Of course not! Not only would it be too confusing, but also Pontius Pilatus and his hand washing is of course center in the marketing effort in trying to convert Romans to Christianity. So pick that Gospel to teach how bad the Jews were to Christ.What's ironic is if you peel back the layers of the clearly polemical aspects of the New Testament, you have a very Jewish Jesus of Nazareth who died at the hands of the Roman Imperial system. But as Pauline doctrine spread across the Mediterranean, you cannot have that connection anymore, and any good Greek scribe is going to make a passage that detaches Jesus from his own people, so as to make him sui generis. — schopenhauer1
That's a nice way to put it: cudgeling for ones owns justifications. You first come up with your objectives, then look for some moral reasons why your objectives are also morally good. Typical actions in our World.I think we have hit upon a foundational agreement between our views :). There is a certain arbitrariness to all of it, and thus any justification is simply that group's cudgel for their justification. But cudgel it is. — schopenhauer1
Only under pressure will both sides cave in and the zealots lose their support. Otherwise the grievance retribution circle will just go on.What of the day after the day after? What is really to rule this area and bring peace, and not just the status quo? I am hoping it is something akin to what you recommend- that a coalition of sorts, helps Palestine rebuild, and rebuild away from those who led them down the darkest nightmare path to death-cult, and to something like a developing country that has economic ties to its closest neighbor. There is literally, no other way. And yes, this takes an Israel that is open to this, one that must be radically transgressive in order to form peace with a former hostile neighbor. Something has to change in order for a long term peace. It cannot be seen as simply a hotbed for more death and destruction. If there is no end to grievance retribution, there is no end to any of it. Give up the fuckn ghost, might be the slogan then. — schopenhauer1
But yes, even starting the clock on October 7th makes no difference: this is still genocide. Thousands of innocent bodies later — and growing — and you and others like you are still convinced it’s justified (or defensive, or accidental, etc). — Mikie
At least the New Testament has the great insight that it has several Gospels, hence someone clearly understood that the written story of the life of Jesus would be extremely crucial to the whole religion, so better to have several accounts. But do Christians use the Gospels together and come to conclusions then to what really happened? Of course not! Not only would it be too confusing, but also Pontius Pilatus and his hand washing is of course center in the marketing effort in trying to convert Romans to Christianity. So pick that Gospel to teach how bad the Jews were to Christ.
And because this is a central part of the traumatic history of a Jews, Jewish satire comes into play: not only the largest religion on Earth has such anti-semitic passages in it's holy book, the second largest religion on Earth also has similar passages in it's holy book. In that case, as there's no uncertainty of Muhammad and his kingdom existing (we even still have the grave around untouched), you have case like the Jewish Banu Nabir tribe trying to assassinate Muhammad, Muhammad fighting against Jewish tribes. And of course, Muhammad trying to convert the Jews and the Jews not being so excited about this new prophet. And a lot of how bad the Jews are. — ssu
That's a nice way to put it: cudgeling for ones owns justifications. You first come up with your objectives, then look for some moral reasons why your objectives are also morally good. Typical actions in our World. — ssu
Only under pressure will both sides cave in and the zealots lose their support. Otherwise the grievance retribution circle will just go on.
The only way I see that pressure coming against Bibi's administration is that they really fuck up with Gaza and a lot more Palestinians would be killed. Perhaps 50 000 are killed. Or perhaps 100 000? Where do we put the number when the outrage becomes too bad? Because that number is out there. When that is reached, Biden will really get the "Genocide Joe" nickname for real. And that's when the US love for Israel would falter: there is already the notable change in the attitudes of the younger generations. Yet so insane aren't even the hardliners in the Israeli government. They might perhaps hope that Palestinians in the Gaza simply walk out to Egypt, but even these Zionist zealots aren't up to any 'final solution' solutions. They might talk so, but likely do understand the consequences and not act so.
The problem is that having over two million people starving without shelter can produce a true disaster of epic proportions. That's the real threat, because Bibi isn't insane. But as we have seen, he can fuck up.
If the Warsaw Uprising is comparable to Gaza now, let's just remember that it took for the Germans 63 days and then from a smaller population of Warsaw they had killed 150 000 to 200 000 civilian and 15 000 Polish resistance fighters. Now with Gaza the war has gone longer and 21 000 civilians have died and perhaps few thousand Hamas fighters are casualties. That is bad and I do say that we could have far less destruction if the IDF would fight like the US Army in Iraq, but we aren't dealing with six digit numbers.
Then on the Palestinian side: when would the losses be so traumatic, that there wouldn't be this firm belief that Israel can be overcome through decades of war? When is it so dark, that people would be just happy to have peace and really don't give a shit about who controls the holy places in Jerusalem? In this way, the history of Europe shows just how ugly the killing has to be that people genuinely want peace and are against jingoism and religious extremism.
Hence I'm really pessimistic at everything here, because the road to real peace might be extremely ugly.
So I'm not hopeful at all. — ssu
And no I do not defend it. Nor claim it is entirely justified. I do claim to have an understanding of it. — tim wood
For if nothing else, four generations of Gazans have shown they cannot govern themselves. — tim wood
Thousands of Palestinians dead after hundreds of Jews murdered because that is the calculus Hamas uses — tim wood
But their choice is commitment to murder - not what I think but what they in every way make explicitly clear year after year after year after year. — tim wood
For decades Bibi has supplied matches & gasoline to Hamas and now firebombs Gaza in retaliation for Hamas setting one of Bibi's houses ablaze. — 180 Proof
My solution: imposed peace then Palestinian self-rule under blue-helmet authority, and that authority lifted when and if Palestinians ever get over and rid themselves of their poisonous ideological commitment to murdering Jews, that poison, imho, seeming to be the governing logic of that part of the world. — tim wood
And Bibi's regime took the bait, so fuck 'em too.[H]amas played their hand, fuck 'em — Merkwurdichliebe
:mask: :up:But their choice is commitment to murder - not what I think but what they in every way make explicitly clear year after year after year after year.
— tim wood
Israel or Hamas? Since the IDF are far more effective terrorists, I’ll assume you mean them. — Mikie
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