I’m quite skeptical about your last claim. Whom/what is “modern civilisation” referring to? Why does “modern civilisation” have a duty “for global security and to right the wrong of the exile of the Jews and the subsequent exile of the Palestinians”?
As far as I'm concerned, my understanding is that the conflict between Israel and Palestinians has to do with state-nation formation over the same piece of land, by two competing nations historically bent on preserving their national identity and security at the expense of the rival nation.
So either the feud continues forever or one succeeds in being genocidal against the other, i.e. it expels or exterminates the rival nation, or one nation dominates the other by assimilation or partial citizenship (Jews have historically experienced all these solutions on their skin).
Other powerful states can intervene to impose a solution which is convenient to them (because the instability of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is detrimental to their interests),
The problem I would focus on is not the horror of zillions of Palestinian kids exploding under Israeli bombs or the historical traumas of the Israelis, but why we are powerless over this conflict.
Once again: understand what an analogy is. Everybody understands beating a dog just makes it aggressive; this is no different than people. Why abused kids often become abusers, why dangerous neighbourhoods raise dangerous people.
And you have it reversed. Their actions result in who's better or worse. It's because Israel had no rights to the occupied territory, so armed resistance is just. It's Israel having collectively punished Gazans for decades. It's a matter of applying legal and moral principles as a result of which Israel is much worse than Hamas. Any tragedy visited in Israeli citizens is by their own making, Jews sacrificed on the Zionist altar.
Nothing. He said that the Israeli far right and the Palestinians/Hamas (PH) have in common that they both "want it all." As to the Israeli far right, I wouldn't know, and I suspect that what they want is peace, security, safety. As to PH, they have made clear beyond all doubt that they want the destruction of Israel and Jewish Israelis, and they act on that whenever they can on both large and small scale.explain where Friedman's 'analysis' goes wrong? :chin: — 180 Proof
So going back to my main point, if one was to be indifferent or "that's what Israel gets" regarding this latest round of killings/barbarism, then especially when it comes to this war, we can no longer really discuss in terms of morality, but in terms of power. — schopenhauer1
As I've argued before, I believe the only way forward is to give Palestinians equal rights, forget the two-state solution, and turn Israel as it is now into a nation where both peoples can live together.
So in this morality of the Thunderdome, where power is the language, and anything goes to get what one wants from the enemy, we can start talking about how the two power dynamics are to play out and how they operate. It could be seen instead of "two sides", as a system that is in a tightly wound knot. When they tug the knot gets tighter, not looser. So to untie the knot, there needs to be a set of actions by both sides in this particular round. The Israelis have to allow for an exit ramp on the other side. Hamas has to figure out if its armed struggle is more important than the lives of its people. And there's the kicker. This is where, whatever you think its failings are, Israel will always win. Israel actually CARES about its OWN people, Hamas does not. Hamas cares about getting a token prize (prisoner exchange or ANYTHING that will allow it to not look like it lost with its tail between its legs). They care not one iota about suffering of their people, just about how the war is carried out.. Whether the media is portraying it their way, whether they get European and American Leftists on board, etc. But basically, they don't care about what is BEST (in terms of actual lives lost and suffering) of their people. The Israelis, DO care about its people to the extent that they don't really consider as much how badly the bombings will affect the Palestinians when they send rockets, because when the more targeted army rushes in, they will have less to deal with in terms of urban combat. They think about things in terms of PROTECTING ITS CITIZENS. Hamas could go on indefinitely and lose millions of people. But they don't care. They DON'T CARE about their people. They care ONLY ABOUT THEIR CAUSE.
That makes a huge difference in how the knot is undone. Hamas would have to CARE ABOUT ITS PEOPLE by letting go of the hostages and even giving themselves in. Odd that they are suicidal, yet can't make the big boy decision that giving up would be best for their own people. They have to turn the key on their end to untie the knot.
BUT then here is another kicker. IF people on the sideline say, "Hamas should not have to give up", then they also don't care about the people that Hamas supposedly is there to represent and protect. Even if Israel supposedly doesn't care about the Palestinian casualties, Hamas and their supporters sure don't either. So who is left to care about the casualties? If Israel doesn't, but it still cares about its side. Hamas doesn't and that's the only one that represents its side (and the Leftist supporters of course). So apparently, all around everyone seems to care only about THEIR CAUSE and not SUFFERING, which negates cries against calling "foul", because they have the key, they just don't want it turned. — schopenhauer1
So in this morality of the Thunderdome,
There seems to be a failure by “The West” and by extension Israel to understand Arabic culture and morality. — Punshhh
The Israeli’s won’t agree to this because it will result in Palestinians (Arabs) becoming elected into government at some stage. Due to the Palestinian population growing faster than the Jewish population. — Punshhh
Remember, you and Benkei are the ones who threw out debates of morality when you decided that means don’t matter if the cause is something you think is just. — schopenhauer1
The Israelis have to allow for an exit ramp on the other side. Hamas has to figure out if its armed struggle is more important than the lives of its people. And there's the kicker. This is where, whatever you think its failings are, Israel will always win. — schopenhauer1
What’s the failure? — schopenhauer1
This is where we are fundamentally in disagreement.
Israel has most to lose. — Tzeentch
Hamas on the other hand, as is typical for resistance movements, just needs to survive until inevitably some day the tables turn. — Tzeentch
Yeah I know you think Hamas and Leftist supporters are super cool nihilists that are “gonna make Israel look bad” in an apocalyptic frenzy. — schopenhauer1
This is just your bias. Yes, I get you don’t see a problem with Hamas it seems, only Israel. — schopenhauer1
And if you live next to a murderous rapist, you shall just have to provide an endless supply of daughters and wives for rape, murder, and mutilation, yes? No?Israel cannot be secure without normal relations with its neighbors, which requires it to find an acceptable solution to the Palestinian problem. — Tzeentch
However unappealing it might be for some people in Israel to have to change its identity, it's simply the only option if it wants to continue its existence. It also happens to be a just option: Israel solves its issue of strategic vulnerability, and in return for the territory grants the Palestinian people equal rights.
Is it the dream solution for either side? No. But it's infinitely more workable than the mess they're in now. — Tzeentch
There is sense to your proposition that existentially the Jews have got to figure it out. — tim wood
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