How's that different from Trump?Biden has been stooging for the Israeli government in the hopes of securing support from the Israel lobby, which could in turn make the difference in the upcoming election. — Tzeentch
These issues take time to change. Years, actually.In other words, the Israel lobby's importance in the upcoming election is diminishing, and as such the US may take a harder stance on Israel, since Israel is estranging itself from the entire world with its genocidal behavior, and its taking the US with it, destroying what little credibility it had left. — Tzeentch
The only reason would be if Trump's base would be upset about Israel. It's not. It's the leftist students in the university campuses and the Arab Americans who are upset about the treatment of Palestinians. — ssu
Too many posters on this thread are looking through glasses - lenses - encrusted with junk. The templates they see that they think are derived from the world are instead artifacts of defective optics. A little lens cleaner might help. The purposes of the Arabs/Palestinians/Hamas are simply based in their beliefs and ideologies. The Israelis/Jews, on the other hand, are and have been literally fighting for their lives. And while this has been the reality of generations/centuries/millennia, 7 Oct. 2023 simply made clear and explicit the bestiality of Arab intentions and practices. As such, until and unless adjudicated, there is no reason to consider anything ante-7 Oct. That is, the animal who brutalized and outraged your daughter before, during, and after murdering her may be just misunderstood, but his actions make that for the while irrelevant: his own statement being that he is no better than an animal, a vicious one. — tim wood
Too many posters on this thread are looking through glasses - lenses - encrusted with junk. The templates they see that they think are derived from the world are instead artifacts of defective optics. — tim wood
Weren’t you the one saying you consider October 7th to be the beginning of this and that nothing prior matters? — Mikie
Tell me, O wise one, when does it all begin? — BitconnectCarlos
No, I was a philosophy major. We thought about big ideas. Like how dumb it is to try to draw a definitive line in this conflict where "everything begins." — BitconnectCarlos
7 October is a fact. The events of 7 October are a fact. The behaviour of Arab/Palestinian/Hamas on 7 Oct, murderous and bestial, also a fact. But there is one whole side of this thread that simply fails/refuses to address those facts. "Oh my yes!" they proclaim, "They did bad things, but those poor people, the awful Jews made them do it." And then they dismiss the Arab side of it, as has been done since at least Yasser Arafat in my recollection, and according to others, well before that.How is this language, and the poster who posts it, even tolerated on the forum? — boethius
Nope, not the beginning, but a boundary that when crossed took all prior matters off the table until this one settled. As with a rabid dog or a medical emergency, you do what is necessary first. In the present case hostages and criminals.Weren’t you the one saying you consider October 7th to be the beginning of this and that nothing prior matters? — Mikie
And then a give a repeat of the propaganda given through pro-Israeli glasses:Too many posters on this thread are looking through glasses - lenses - encrusted with junk. — tim wood
The purposes of the Arabs/Palestinians/Hamas are simply based in their beliefs and ideologies. The Israelis/Jews, on the other hand, are and have been literally fighting for their lives. And while this has been the reality of generations/centuries/millennia, 7 Oct. 2023 simply made clear and explicit the bestiality of Arab intentions and practices. — tim wood
It's not so severe as you make it to sound, because once the operation ends and we have some kind of a cease-fire, then the people will forget the issue. Out of sight, out of mind.US support for Israel is tanking US credibility pretty much across the globe. Arab nations are an especially important factor in this, because US influence in the region is rapidly waning and basically all Arab nations are aligning themselves with the BRICS, threatening to cut the US out.
I think soon the Israeli government and the lobby will realise that there are in fact things more important to the United States than US-Israel relations, and that overplaying their hand is going to fundamentally hamstring their position in the future. — Tzeentch
Nope, not the beginning, but a boundary that when crossed took all prior matters off the table until this one settled. As with a rabid dog or a medical emergency, you do what is necessary first. In the present case hostages and criminals. — tim wood
I get that the conflict in Ukraine is of primary importance for the EU and Russia, but if you are focusing on the swing of power between China and the US, I’m not sure that the difference between likely outcomes either in the Ukrainian conflict or in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would make a difference for China and the US. As you say “the struggle between the two is primarily elsewhere”. Besides the conflict in Ukraine still looks far from being settled in a way that is amenable to most certainly boost China's or the US's hegemony.
Yes if the U.S. were to pull out from the Middle East it would change things, but as you say it’s not likely any time soon.with cascading dividends for world hegemonic powers (the US, China or Russia) because the US then would be facilitated in pulling out from the middle east and re-invest its military capital/troops elsewhere to contain China. Yet, as I anticipated, it’s not easy to pull out from the middle-east:
Nonsense, the U.S. is most powerful working alongside a powerful successful EU. If the U.S. were to go down this line you suggest, it would lead to the break up of the EU, the advance of Russia, and a generation of wars in Europe, which would try to draw the U.S. in many times and which would guarantee China’s hegemony with Russia as her side kick. Regarding Russia, she has been trying to meddle in Europe for a long time, nothing has changed in that.I already answered that question. Russia and the US are the first ones to come to mind. Both may have strong incentives to play divide et impera strategies in Europe to preserve their supremacy.
Yes, the EU is fragile as a fledgling Union, however I don’t see it failing any time soon. The mutual benefit to the member states is to strong a motivation to avoid collapse.The prospects vary among superpowers. But only in the EU the situation looks so worrisome in all domains at the same time, at least now.
Yes the supporters of Israel and the Jewish lobby etc will naturally claim October 7th as genocide. But if we set the bar so low it will bring thousands of small conflicts around the world into the definition. My bar is very high and I have heard numerous legal specialists on the media casting doubt on what is a genocide in this situation. As I say, for me it is the deliberate starvation of probably now 1 million Palestinian citizens, happening as we speak.What act are you talking about? The massacre of October 7 is the act carried out by Hamas. This act can be accused of being genocidal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_in_the_2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel . Is such act genocidal or not, to you? If not, what DEMONSTRATES that it is not, to you?
It's not so severe as you make it to sound, because once the operation ends and we have some kind of a cease-fire, then the people will forget the issue. Out of sight, out of mind. — ssu
The West can "forget the issue", but the geopolitical shift with Arab nations aligning to BRICS and taking a bigger role cannot simply be ignored. Or rather one may ignore it at their own peril.
I was referring to the West and especially to the US. To the Middle East, well, it's quite laughable to talk about this being only a temporary setback in the warming of Saudi-Israeli relations.The West can "forget the issue", but the geopolitical shift with Arab nations aligning to BRICS and taking a bigger role cannot simply be ignored. Or rather one may ignore it at their own peril. — Tzeentch
I think the IDF and it's performance in the earlier wars is the reason, not only the just the assistance from the US. Also Syria and Egypt got quite a lot more assistance from a Superpower earlier than they could actually afford. And Egypt has now also gotten assistance from the US. Not so much as Israel, but still.Israel is a small island in a sea of historical and potential enemies, and it is cultivating the seeds of a gigantic disaster within and without its own borders.
I honestly think you don't fully understand what is at stake here.
The only reason Israel still exists is because of its "special relationship" with the United States and basically the promise that the United States will come to Israel's rescue if it were ever in real trouble. — Tzeentch
Indeed yes. This is basically the Saudi-Iranian conflict that was fought in Yemen, for example. But also in Syria.↪ssu, don't forget the Sunni (85-90% worldwide) versus Shia (Iran, Iraq, Azerbaijan, Bahrain) conflict. Internal to Islam, they're not seeing eye-to-eye, to the point of violence now and then. — jorndoe
The Arab nations haven't been ever completely clueless when it comes to military matters, actually. But that Israel's neighbors have been poor Third World countries is a fact. And Soviet equipment and tactics weren't up to par with the Israelis (shown by Israeli aircraft winning an air battle against Soviet pilots flying the Soviet equipment during the War of Attrition, see here). Saudi Arabia did actually send couple battalions to Syria and one brigade into Jordan (which wasn't fighting, but still) yet these forces came so late that they didn't see action.The Arab nations are no longer completely clueless when it comes to military matters, and recent history is filled with examples of how to counter the traditional western way of war (even carried out by the Arabs themselves). — Tzeentch
I think that everybody here has condemned it. I even made the point that even Hamas admitted to "excesses" happening during Al-Aqsa Flood (October 7th), which is quite hypocritical. Nobody has denied that Hamas has perpetuated warcrimes.Has that been condemned yet? — Moses
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