The Absurd is the Absurd, but Camus was in favor of freedom as well. Say what you will about whatever, but I still contend that freedom is good.

Anarchists today have mistaken Anarchism for generalized chaos — thewonder

I am not an expert in anarchism but survival of the fittest is controlled anarchy were viable situations survive.

I am a skeptic of evolution but we are told it is a controlled form of chaos. Things survive but with no moral claim on their successes.

The anarchy is in letting things freely emerge without the intervention of minds. Antinatalism is not anarchy however. It is akin to Eastern religion and ending the cycle of life an death.

It recognise the trap of hedonism (The hedonistic treadmill) and surviving for the sake of surviving.

I'm of the opinion that a general purpose of life should be to extend it, all of it, not just human life, indefinitely. People can get lost in that, though.

You can only want out of a cult. You may not realize that you do, but, within the full breath of your reason, you would. — thewonder

I am the only person in my family who is non religious. Freedom for the rest of my family is not abandoning there religious indoctrination. In relation to the topic of this thread notions of freedom are distorted. Apparently Palestinian Arabs do not want to be free form Hamas, Misogyny, racism, Anti-Semitism, Islamic fundamentalism etc. Their only source of lack of freedom is Israel (ie the Jews) and not their own ideology?

Have Gazan's spoken up against Hamas. Umm yes after they have fled Gaza to the safety of somewhere else. Saying Hamas's captives in the strip support them is like saying I endorsed my childhood in a cult. Because I was indoctrinated and defenceless.

I am sorry for your brother, but don't think that you should use such an anecdote to promote the nihilistic cynicism that you have adopted. — thewonder

I am not using it. It is a fact. Nature causes and allows massive suffering.

Here is the Reverend Dawkins

“The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference"

Morality is opposition to the reality of nature and moral indignation is nay but a ripple in a pond.

That's not freedom, though. That's just an unwitting form of subjugation.

If you read my posts, you will discover that I support the two-to-one state solution effectively endorsed by the people in Fatah who have put enough thought into how to facilitate an effective peace process, though they'll probably tell you different things at different times.

“The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference" — Andrew4Handel

From a purely existential standpoint, that's a way of interpreting the Absurd. We have the capacity to produce good in the world, though. While being reasonable, why not create it?

That's not freedom, though. That's just an unwitting form of subjugation. — thewonder

What is freedom?

I would consider anyone who is happy, however deluded, free from suffering. Which is the only freedom we want.

Denying the responsibility of parent for children's suffering is a delusion and subjugation to a fiction. Believing in fake countries, boundaries and human rights is a subjugation. Recognising the ruthless position we are in nature is enlightenment. This "debate" focuses on unearned premises and axioms and moral authority being used to condemn the Jews. It is not based on Natural Law or naturally emerging rights. It is the smug superiority of those who gained their own comforts through years of slavery, colonialization, oppression, misogyny and war and now they si ton their sofas condemning people with out this mental protection.

Freedom is just being able to do whatever you want to, aside from not being forced to do anything at all. Everything about freedom is good. I am just promoting the reasonable cultivation of what is good.

I'm not saying that they're lacking in agency. I'm saying that they're not truly free. They're subject to whatever religious sect they're a part of.

I am an Anarcho-Pacifist. You are giving a defense of Israel and accusing me of an uncritical support of the nation-state because of that I am in favor of human rights. Human rights came about in response to the humanitarian catastrophe of the Second World War. In your topsy-turvy world, though, advocating human rights is a form of subjugation. In a way, I could see how that could be the case, but people who violate human rights kind of lose what general sympathy I have for criminals. I think that they, too, ought to have some form of restorative justice, but, that is not something for me to decide. Generally, I consider for a person's attitude towards human rights to be sort of a litmus. If they don't like them, you do kind of have to ask why. I rather like that the United Nations loosely defined self-determination and think that it could both be meaningfully invoked in both Palestine and what is oft-called "Kurdistan". That's just whatever, though.

Israel is portrayed as the center of the world and the centrifuge of the West. In a way, to me, it's just like any other Western nation-state. It's just like France or the United Kingdom. I have much to critique and only some to laud by that account. In a way, it's not, though. I've written a post to get at that, but I don't think that you'd get it. That's neither here nor there, though.

You should watch this video of Werner Herzog. I think that you'd appreciate it. As much as I agree with his sentiment, I do still support the cultivation of goodness, though. Maybe I'll find out what it is someday?

My God the number of fallacies is just staggering for one post. One, you're equivocating Palestinians in Gaza with Hamas and confusing them with Palestinians in The Knesset. It's a total red herring to bring either up. Or the aid, that needs to go into construction every time the fucking IDF destroys the place.

The fact of the matter is that if Israel wasn't occupying and strangling the Palestinian territorities they wouldn't need billions in aid or build rockets to get the oppressor and occupier to move off of their lands.

https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Israelis-restrictions-cost-the-Palestinian-economy-34-billion-annually-328129

https://electronicintifada.net/content/israel-chokes-palestinian-trade-says-un-study/10352

https://unctad.org/topic/palestinian-people

EDIT; Just read your post history here. Since you're an uncritical and unambashed Israeli war crime apologist, this is exactly the first and last time I'm replying to you.

Well done your deranged prejudice has shone through. Good luck at creating peace in the Middle East.

Palestinian Arabs living Israel (nearly 2 million) are not real Palestinian Arabs. Well done solving that psychotic conundrum in your mind.

I have not caused Any problems in the Middle East but you certainly are by your barrage of lies. Well Done.

I don't expect you to Enlighten me on How Hamas took control of Gaza . Must have been the Jews fault!

confusing them with Palestinians in The Knesset — Benkei

You claimed the Palestinians (just Arabs) were being kept poor or are you applying that to the Palestinians in the Knesset?

Or are you just an outright lying propagandist anti-Semite. You decide.

Delegitimizing the millions of Arabs in Israel as poor victims is not only lies, but patronising dishonest, Anti-Semitic and deranged.

Israeli war crime — Benkei

You will never be able to define a war crime to me so don't bother trying.

Although I will say what is the difference between a war and a crime just a rhetoric question?

But yay firing thousands of rockets indiscriminately into Israel is a war glory

@BitconnectCarlos I'm wondering, what part of the facts we're not in agreement about, aside from the conclusions we derive from them. So here's a list of things I consider facts:

1. Palestinians have a right to self-determination as well;
2. The Arabs were opposed to any type of partition in 1948 because they believed the rule "of Palestine should revert to its inhabitants", that included Jews and Arabs at the time;
3. In accordance with Bretton-Woods, acquisition of land through warfare is illegal because aggression is illegal;
4. You cannot acquire land through defensive war, because you cannot logically defend what wasn't yours to begin with;
5. Therefore the acquisition of land beyond the 1948 partition plan is predicated on the war crime from which all war crimes stem: the act of aggression;
6. The occupation of the West Bank and Gaza are therefore illegal;
7. All settlements not in accordance with the 1948 lines are therefore iilegal and should be removed;
8. The Palestinians have been more than generous several times over to agree to solutions close to the 1967 borders;
9. The reason why the Israeli haven't agreed is because the right-wing political zionism, which has been in power most of the time, especially for the last 24 years, is intent on establishing an Israel from the Jordan river to the sea;

Let me know which ones you disagree with or think need to be qualified in some sense.

My conclusions from the above:

1. The fact there is no peace, can be laid fully at the feet of the Israeli government as its even greedier than the land it already stole in 1967;
2. Israel has been in breach of international law since 1948, the same legal regime it bases its own rights on (you can't have your cake and eat it);
3. As long as right-wing political zionism is effectively in control of policy, it's a policy of de facto ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people as their presence is slowly eroded through evictions in East Jerusalem and through settler colonisation (and let's not get started on the Apartheid rule in Israel proper itself, which is another atrocity);
4. Israel therefore deserves no help or respect from the international community until such time as it enters into good faith negotiations with the people its oppressing;
5. Considering Israel's obvious bad faith approach to any form of peace, I conclude that every Israeli tragedy is of its own making and every tragedy befalling the Palestinians is wreaked upon them by the Israelis.

Keep talking. Foaming at the mouth yet?

I cannot fathom your level of delusion.


"On 15 May 1948, the civil war transformed into a conflict between Israel and the Arab states following the Israeli Declaration of Independence the previous day. Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, and expeditionary forces from Iraq entered Palestine.[15] The invading forces took control of the Arab areas and immediately attacked Israeli forces and several Jewish settlements.[16][17][18] The 10 months of fighting took place mostly on the territory of the British Mandate and in the Sinai Peninsula and southern Lebanon, interrupted by several truce periods.[19]"

"The Jordanians in Latrun cut off supplies to western Jerusalem.[154] Though some supplies, mostly munitions, were airdropped into the city, the shortage of food, water, fuel and medicine was acute. The Israeli forces were seriously short of food, water and ammunition.[154]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War#Battle_for_Jerusalem

"An Iraqi force consisting of two infantry and one armoured brigade crossed the Jordan River from northern Jordan, attacking the Israeli settlement of Gesher with little success.[17] Following this defeat, Iraqi forces moved into the strategic triangle bounded by the Arab towns Nablus, Jenin and Tulkarm. On 25 May, they were making their way towards Netanya, when they were stopped.[159] On 29 May, an Israeli attack against the Iraqis led to three days of heavy fighting over Jenin, but Iraqi forces managed to hold their positions.[159] After these battles, the Iraqi forces became stationary and their involvement in the war effectively ended.[120][159"

"On 21 May, the Syrian army was stopped at kibbutz Degania Alef in the north, where local militia reinforced by elements of the Carmeli Brigade halted Syrian armoured forces with Molotov cocktails, hand grenades and a single PIAT. One tank that was disabled by Molotov cocktails and hand grenades still remains at the kibbutz. The remaining Syrian forces were driven off the next day by four Napoleonchik mountain guns – Israel's first use of artillery during the war.[164] Following the Syrian forces' defeat at the Deganias a few days later, they abandoned the Samakh village.[161] The Syrians were forced to besiege the kibbutz rather than advance.[159] One author claims that the main reason for the Syrian defeat was the Syrian soldiers' low regard for the Israelis who they believed would not stand and fight against the Arab army.[163]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

4. You cannot acquire land through defensive war, because you cannot logically defend what wasn't yours to begin with; — Benkei

Nothing belongs to anyone. Feel free to defend this statement.

I think that you have failed to understand the explicit purpose of my previous ramblings, which was to make it impossible for the forum to spread misinformation about my person so as to be let to cultivate social capital from a set of clandestine Anarchist socialites. I can prove that I have done this with this tidbit of information.

"Samizdat originated from the dissident movement of the Russian intelligentsia, and most samizdat directed itself to a readership of Russian elites. While circulation of samizdat was relatively low, at around 200,000 readers on average, many of these readers possessed positions of cultural power and authority.[9] Furthermore, because of the presence of "dual consciousness" in the Soviet Union, the simultaneous censorship of information and necessity of absorbing information to know how to censor it, many government officials became readers of samizdat."

- Wikipedia]

It is now lacking in plausible deniability. The dispute that I have with these Anarchists will be put aside and I will just simply move on with my life. I'm now just trying to figure how to either leave or trail off of the forum well, but am somewhat at a loss on account of having to explain too much.

Anyways, according to Wikipedia, "a war crime is an act that constitutes a serious violation of the laws of war that gives rise to individual criminal responsibility. Examples of crimes include intentionally killing civilians or prisoners, torturing, destroying civilian property, taking hostages, performing a perfidy, raping, using child soldiers, pillaging, declaring that no quarter will be given, and seriously violating the principles of distinction, proportionality, and military necessity.

The concept of war crimes emerged at the turn of the twentieth century when the body of customary international law applicable to warfare between sovereign states was codified. Such codification occurred at the national level, such as with the publication of the Lieber Code in the United States, and at the international level with the adoption of the treaties during the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907. Moreover, trials in national courts during this period further helped clarify the law. Following the end of World War II, major developments in the law occurred. Numerous trials of Axis war criminals established the Nuremberg principles, such as the notion that war crimes constituted crimes defined by international law. Additionally, the Geneva Conventions in 1949 defined new war crimes and established that states could exercise universal jurisdiction over such crimes.[1] In the late 20th century and early 21st century, following the creation of several international courts, additional categories of war crimes applicable to armed conflicts other than those between states, such as civil wars, were defined." I think that that definition should suffice. They do seem to be entirely reprehensible, even when committed by Israelis, and, despite my, at least, feeling a need to defend myself as I have here, you will thankfully not find another person who doesn't think just that.

War, in general, is condemnable. You, I am sure, will attempt to explain that is just some sort of fact of human nature, but you, I think, have listened all too well a particular set of Jack London's readership. That is neither here nor there, though.

What you ought to do is not to attempt to engage within the propagandistic feud that you are attempting to and consider as to whether or not you have become subject to a nihilistic and cynical pathology and if you shouldn't liberate yourself from it so that you can eventually secure a better quality of life. You are doing any Jews any favors by demanding a definition of a term when you damn know what it means.

I'm also not entirely sure that I believe you. You're just so like what you could be like so as to do a certain thing, though you could be like that. I don't want to even begin with that sort of thing, though.

In what sense do the Israelis have this plan? — BitconnectCarlos

The plan is mostly in the pudding - which includes, but is not limited to, the codified racism of Israeli law, the widespread demolition of homes, the forced displacement of families, the destruction of olive groves, the illegal blockade of Palestinian territory, continued extrajudical killings (not to speak of maiming), hundreds of checkpoints that restrict freedom of movement, arbitrary detentions, use of torture, the continued committing of war crimes (for all to see), and lots more. You can of course, read about it yourself -from the HRW report into apartheid conditions, or else the latest Amnesty report, among others.

Israeli state terrorism is well documented, and their treatment of Palestinians like animals can be seen pretty much everywhere one cares to look.

I'm also not entirely sure that I believe you. You're just so like what you could be like so as to do a certain thing, though you could be like that. I don't want to even begin with that sort of thing, though. — thewonder

We don't know each other. I attempted suicide a few times and survived as a young man then I partially cared for my severely ill older brother till he died for many years. My prematurely dead brother doesn't own anything. You can't own anything after you have died.
No one will own the Middle East after they die. let us not continue this cycle of suffering by fictional ideas.

Shame on people who think having 14 children is not child abuse. Having one child is indefensible let alone 14 and then to pretend to be piously outraged over someone else's alleged iniquities.

and their treatment of Palestinians like animals — StreetlightX

By killing two hundred out of population of Millions after having 1,500 rockets thrown at them . Is there any depth to your dishonesty? And by the Way Israel contains nearly 2 million Arabs who were also targeted by these rockets. One of them a 7 year old boy was murdered by your martyrs Hamas.

Make up your mind whether you care about the Palestinians or not.

By killing two hundred out of population of Millions — Andrew4Handel

Palestinians are not just interchangeable with any Arabs, although I can see why this kind of racist talking point is peddled by genocide deniers like you. And of course Israel contains 'Arabs', all of whom exist as 5th class citizens and treated as animals of a barely higher order than those who lands Israel unleashes their terrorism upon, day after day.

I've attempted suicide too, but I don't use it to defend war crimes. I'm saying that your posts in this thread read as counter-intelligence to discredit me. You're probably just kind of out there, though. You should figure things better out, y'know.

Palestinians are not just interchangeable with any Arab — StreetlightX

Palestinians Are not Arabs? What language do they speak? What research have you done into their genetics? Where did the Hebrew language come from and have you read the Quran and the Bible?

Where did the Jews originate from?#

Your lies about Arab-Israelis are predictable easily defeated and deeply anti Semitic. I can't even be bothered wasting my time on you with counter evidence. Clearly this issue enflames you more than anything else but you are not anti-Semitic? Millions children are abused, die of malnutrition, die in countless wars and neglect please direct me to a thread where you show similar "compassion" for them

Or just continue being a Jew hater phoney..

I've attempted suicide too, but I don't use it to defend war crimes. — thewonder

Neither have I. But you appear to be depending Hamas's war crimes and stated constitutional aim to eradicate Israel. Is the reason you didn't commit suicide because you knew you just had to defend a misogynist, homophobic, evidentially murderous terrorist organisation? That certainly was not mine.

I don't accept your bad faith and phoney psychology speak. That is symptomatic of the demise of civilised reality.

Palestinians Are not Arabs? — Andrew4Handel

I didn't say they are not Arabs, I said they are not interchangeable with any Arabs. Although I realize your illiteracy sometimes gets in the way of reading properly.

And those whole shtick about conflating criticism of Israeli terrorism with anti-semitism is a sad joke now. It doesn't work any more, sadly for you. Israeli terrorism has been laid bare for all to see. It's time of avoiding accountability for its crimes because it and you can cry 'anti-semitism' as a reflex is over.