I am really about to finish writing for tonight as I am not home yet. I certainly didn't see your comment about 'bowel movements' as the end of discussion because I think that you really say so much more. But, I think that is one of the ways in which dreams are seen, and I think that is how many people see philosophy too. But, I really will log out now, because my mum is waiting for my call to know that I am home safely.

No worries - the idea of dreams being a bowel movement is not intended as a negative insight. This 'dumping of images and themes' may be necessary for mental health just as being regular is vital for physical health. Where I differ to some others is in the usefulness and possibility of dream interpretation.

Of course, of course, there are many possibilities, all of which could be true either alone or in some intriguing combination. Until the truth is discovered, we may speculate all we want without being right/wrong about what dreaming is all about.

Until the truth is discovered, we may speculate all we want without being right/wrong about what dreaming is all about. — TheMadFool

Well, the OP seems to be about what purpose people think dreams have and how they understand them.

I am raising the question of the purpose of dreams and understanding them. — Jack Cummins

People can experience and interpret dreams differently. As dreams are a subjective experience, what is "right" or "wrong" may ultimately be a subjective decision. It doesn't mean that people can't exchange views or "speculate" about them.

Perhaps dreams aren't really dreams, a statement that makes complete sense since some have voiced the opinion that reality, our waking experience, isn't really real.

Perhaps dreams aren't really dreams, a statement that makes complete sense since some have voiced the opinion that reality, our waking experience, isn't really real. — TheMadFool

Very true. There is also the possibility that dreams are the real reality and waking experience the dreamed one. Alternatively, we may find that both are just dreams once we've woken up in the morning and realized what the real reality is. It should be interesting to see if Jack - or his thread - is still there.

That's an unpleasant comment. I hope I am better than this TC. — Tom Storm

I'm sorry it bothered you. It does not reflect my opinion of your contributions here. In the past I have expressed my appreciation for what you bring to the forum. It surprises me you thought I might be serious. I'll be more careful in the future.

No worries, TC. I am tired as a result of a COVID emergency at work. No harm done.

Some people don't seem to remember their dreams as much as others and I don't think that there are any clear explanations why. I know that there are times when I don't really remember them and other times when I remember so many that I feel tired just from thinking about them.

It is unclear whether it means one has been asleep but not in REM sleep. I don't think that you should really worry if you don't have dreams to recall, and this may change.I know people who don't think that they dream and it changes. The subconscious may have its own logic. — Jack Cummins

I'm going to have to do some research. I can only remember the subject of two dreams since childhood - one of which I remember none of the sequence of events, the other I can only remember seconds of. It's a shame, because I think they were nice dreams too.

So, I am raising the question of the purpose of dreams and understanding them. Do they have a purpose and meaning? — Jack Cummins

I prefer symbolic-semiotic structuring (e.g. Cassirer-Langer, Bataille, Levi-Strauss, Eco) for "dream" analysis / interpretation over neurosis-anxiety repressions (e.g. Freud, Jung, Lacan, Žizek) if only because the latter approach is less physiologically grounded (e.g. accounts less empirically for cognitive biases) than the former approach. Others have already touched on some compelling findings from the neurosciences of sleep so I won't bother repeating them except to add that active REM-like dreaming sleep-behaviors are observed in (all?) mammals which convinces me that "dreams" are only by-products of sleep's homeostatic maintenance functions and N O T independent, or transcendent, messages or bearers of "meaning". Yeah, subpersonal "bowel movements" (or defragging memory-buffers) are much more like it. Contra (daily increases of) CNS-entropy, no?

except to add that active REM-like dreaming sleep-behaviors are observed in (all?) mammals which convinces me that "dreams" are only by-products of sleep's homeostatic maintenance functions and N O T independent, or transcendent, messages or bearers of "meaning". — 180 Proof

Exactly... though I'm open to an explanation, I've been constantly wondering while reading this thread how certain people opining here would account for the fact that our furry cousins can dream just as well as the naked variety. Is there supposed to be something unique about our dreams, or does a bat's dream have meaning too? (Or is the meaning supposed to be just in the interpretation... dreams as ink blots?)

:up:

As far as I am aware animals dream which does also suggest that animals have a subconscious. We could also say that thinking about dreaming involves wondering about the nature of the subconscious itself.

I am wondering if you wish to share a bit about your own precognitive dreams. It doesn't matter if they are mundane, because I am not wishing this thread to become too heavy weather. I believe that my childhood memory of one was when I dreamt that my toy chimpanzee's arm broke and it really did break shortly afterwards. Apart from being upset that Charlie Chimp's arm broke, I can remember saying to my mum, how strange it was that I had the dream beforehand.

I noticed in one of your comments, you say that 'Perhaps dreams aren't really dreams.' and you go on to say that would mean that our waking experience isn't real. If that were the case it could be the basis for the Eastern idea of maya, or the idea of reality as an illusion. Or, alternatively it could even be the basis for the soliptist point of view. Do you have any further thoughts on the matter?

I noticed in one of your comments, you say that 'Perhaps dreams aren't really dreams.' and you go on to say that would mean that our waking experience isn't real. If that were the case it could be the basis for the Eastern idea of maya, or the idea of reality as an illusion. Or, alternatively it could even be the basis for the soliptist point of view. Do you have any further thoughts on the matter? — Jack Cummins

Thanks for asking this question. It just popped into my head why we can't remember our dreams. There's a very good reason for that. First some context. I know a person, an acquaintance only. We engage in the occasional chit-chat and a constant feature in these rare conversations we have is the one where he can't seem to tell whether one of his experiences actually happened or whether it was only a dream. As you might've already guessed, there's nothing about the mental images of dreams and waking states that could aid us in distinguishing whether a particular memory was the real deal or a dream. He seemed confused and troubled by it and I feel he still hasn't figured out the truth.

Anyway, to get right to the point, if one recalls one's dreams perfectly, there's a small chance that you might confuse reality, believed to be the waking state and the unreal, the dreams. Just imagine if a woman had a nightmare in which she's raped by a certain Mr. X, she recalls it and what if she can't tell whether it was when she was dreaming or when she was awake? Frightening! Just thinking of it gives me the chills!

Perhaps, this answers your question!

I think that such confusion over whether certain experiences really happened or not does exist in certain states of delirium, such as those involved in alcohol intoxication, psychosis and dementia. There is also what Freud describes as false memory syndrome, but that can be criticised on the basis that it is about someone, such as a psychiatrist trying to tell someone that a certain experiences is simply their imagination.

But, I know some people who do seem unsure of their own memories, and, it does seem that waking life and dreams almost blur together. We can even ask to what extent are we truly 'awake'. Guirjieff and a number of other thinkers thought that most people were living like robots and that the goal should be to become more awake.

I think that such confusion over whether certain experiences really happened or not does exist in certain states of delirium, such as those involved in alcohol intoxication, psychosis and dementia — Jack Cummins

Unfortunately, possible. Nevertheless, the brain, as a precautionary measure, might want to forget dreams so that we don't confuse them with the real. If it didn't do that, I foresee, even with my myopia, a great many problems that can be avoided by simply failing to remember dreams. Why risk it? Are dreams really that important?

I did a Google search of the most common dream people have and it's falling from heights. Of course, there might be a deep meaning to this particular dream theme but we all.get scared of heights to varying extents. If dreams are about our fears then a much easier way to work out the comtents of dreams is to work backwards from what makes us afraid and extrapolate the findings to dreams instead of interviewing people about their dreams. You get the idea, right?

It is unclear whether these particular dreams of mine were precognitive or more clairvoyant. I believe the latter is the case. It's always hard to tell. Of course, I'm also keeping open the possibility that this was all pure coincidence. Only when you experience it yourself, it doesn't seem so coincidental.

In fact, I once had a dream that did not have the usual dream quality, it was different, not so visual, rather everything somehow shadowy outlined, as when you close your eyes in wakefulness and still have a vague idea of your surroundings, which you just saw clearly. The dream was more characterized by a sober feeling of passive witnessing, of being a spectator of a situation, instead of the feeling of being in a fantasy realm where I have to act constantly. What was almost indistinguishable from reality was the acoustics.

Now to the content of the dream or perhaps clairvoyance. A half-sister of mine, who was very pregnant, talked with her partner about the name of her soon-to-be-born son and both had decided on a name.
The next day I could only remember very clearly that an A-sound stood out in the name. Sometime later, perhaps after a few weeks, this had been confirmed. The name was Mat___o.
As I said, it could have been a big coincidence. But the dream was really clearly different in quality from all my previous ones.

Nevertheless, the brain, as a precautionary measure, might want to forget dreams so that we don't confuse them with the real. — TheMadFool

The problem with that argument is that people do remember dreams. Perhaps not always and not perfectly, but dream recollection isn't at all unusual. What seems to be the case is that we remember dreams that appear to have a meaning or are otherwise of importance to us personally.

IMO the fact that sometimes people aren't sure whether their experience was a dream or something more real is a separate issue.

As I said, it could have been a big coincidence. But the dream was really clearly different in quality from all my previous ones. — spirit-salamander

Yes, coincidences are possible. However, in my own experience, dreams are sometimes a premonition of events that actually happen soon after, usually within one to three days of an unusually "real" or "lucid" dream that I remember quite clearly for days, and where there is no possibility of "coincidence".

I tend to believe that we all have this ability that is more developed in some than in others and that can be enhanced through training and practice. But, as a rule, when we pay attention to our dreams and our dreaming abilities, the "subconscious" or whatever we choose to call it, tends to respond and become more "communicative" or "cooperative", as if a greater harmony was established between the waking and the dreaming self.

Another ability that some people, including myself, have is to wake up at a certain time without an alarm clock or any other aid. In my case, I usually wake up about ten minutes before the set time. This would seem to suggest that our waking self is in contact with our subconscious at all times. But what normally happens is that people pay little attention to their subconscious or totally ignore it or aren't even aware of its existence except, for example, when they know that they have a part of themselves that dreams or exists in a world of its own.

One idea about dreaming which I am aware of in some philosophies, especially those in the East, is that of the astral body. This is also linked to the idea of there being an astral plane. I am aware of the idea being open to attack within philosophy, but, in some ways, I think that I find the idea makes sense. Of course, the idea does involve the belief that the astral body is there all the time, and is involved in the emotional life and also comes into play when people get sick .It is closely related to the concept of auras, which some people claim that they can see.

Of course, the idea does involve the belief that the astral body is there all the time, and is involved in the emotional life and also comes into play when people get sick .It is closely related to the idea of auras, which some people claim that they can see. — Jack Cummins

The term for "astral body" in the Greek (Platonist) tradition is όχημα ochema, literally, “vehicle” a kind of subtle body the soul uses in dreams, out of body states, or on the metaphysical planes of existence in general.

This subtle body is indestructible and eternal and it envelops the soul proper at all times. Basically, a human being consists of (1) spirit (nous or pneuma) or pure intelligence, (2) soul (psyche) or psycho-mental complex along with an invisible subtle body, and (3) visible physical body (soma). As the subtle body (ochema) consists of a form of quasi-material energy, it may be visible in certain circumstances especially to those who seem to have the ability, but occasionally also to others.

As you say, the astral body does have a close connection with the physical body, in fact, the physical body is said to be an extension or "copy" of the subtle one. The latter is therefore involved in the physical and mental health and well-being of the embodied soul.

Edit. The purification and cultivation of the ochema is what enables the soul to elevate itself to higher realms of experience.

The problem with that argument is that people do remember dreams. Perhaps not always and not perfectly, but dream recollection isn't at all unusual. What seems to be the case is that we remember dreams that appear to have a meaning or are otherwise of importance to us personally.

IMO the fact that sometimes people aren't sure whether their experience was a dream or something more real is a separate issue. — Apollodorus

 If you have trouble remembering dreams, you're in good company. Most of us have 4 to 6 dreams a night, but we forget the vast majority of them. — www.healthline.com

The Brain May Actively Forget In Dream Sleep (NIH)

We all have our own little problems.

I thought that the idea of the astral body probably goes back to Plato. I came across the idea in theosophy. One interesting argument for the existence of an astral body is the existence of images of it within Kirlian photography. I had my aura photographed once, and it was a mixture of red, pink and orange. The interpretation of the person who photographed it was fairly interesting, considering that she had never met me before.

I have heard that dreams of falling, on the verge of sleep, are connected to going into the astral dimension. I have these frequently and they often jolt me awake.

That's an interesting little article. I do think that we do need to forget dreams to some extent, in our waking lives, in order to focus on the tasks of our daily life. Similarly, we do need to forget the tasks of daily life, in dreams, in order to switch off. Dreams can even be seen as a form of diversion or entertainment. I spent a few sessions once, on what was called a dream machine. This involved listening to certain sounds and having images displayed on goggles. It involved the range of the alpha, delta and theta brainwaves, which come into play in states of meditation, and I felt so much more relaxed after the sessions

However, in thinking about waking and dreaming consciousness, it is as if they are two separate, but interrelated lives. They run parallel, and we may even interact with the same people in both. Time within dreams is also interesting, because we can go back. I frequently have dreams in which I am back in sixth form, interacting with friends from that time, and I believe that it was because that was the time when I discovered most of the importance issues and themes which have been central to my life. But, dreams are also interesting in the way we still can regain memories of people from the past, although this is not necessarily something which we can choose by will.

I have heard that dreams of falling, on the verge of sleep, are connected to going into the astral dimension. I have these frequently and they often jolt me awake. — Jack Cummins

Yes, the Greek philosophers were naturally aware of the existence of a subtle body. Interest in it seems to have become more prominent by the time of Iamblichus and others, but another possibility is that at the time of Plato occult teachings were transmitted orally hence there are fewer written records from that period.

But you are right about dreams of falling at the start of sleep. A related experience is when you are awake but seem to be somewhere outside the physical body which you are trying to move but remains totally immovable despite all efforts, giving rise to the rather unpleasant impression that you have "died" or are "about to die". Fortunately, it tends to only last for a few minutes. Perhaps this illustrates the danger of experimenting with things one has no knowledge or experience of. You would probably have to devote a lot of time and practice to develop and master even a fraction of your paranormal abilities. So, I think it's a personal decision as to how deep one wants to delve into it.

I agree that there is a danger of experimentation. But, as so much can happen spontaneously, it does seem that a certain amount of development of mastery is likely to help.

I definitely have experiences on the borderline of sleep in which I feel unable to move, and I think it is called sleep paralysis. Often, I have seen very strange entities in such sleep states. I do have positive experiences too. A couple of months ago I was awake, but felt intense heat in my spine, and drifted into a state of being partially asleep and for some time, I saw flashes of white light. It felt like some kind of 'kundalini' awakening, and it felt positive really.

I have not read much of the symbolic- semiotic structuring approach, but I would think that it possibly includes a more mythic emphasis. Do you think that this is more important than biological aspects of dreaming? One psychoanalyst who I read briefly, was Walter Bion and he thought that certain structuring or organisation of memories was important in being able to get to sleep. I think that this is probably true, because I often have difficulty getting off to sleep and it is about the way thoughts intrude and dominate consciousness. I often feel envious of people who can just put their head down on a pillow and fall asleep straight away.

"Myth" is integral to the symbolic-semiotic approach. It's not "more important", just occasionally accessible content (i.e. "bowel movements") of the underlying biological system which a dreamer confabulates as s/he wakes and may interpret according to cultural-linguistic codes once fully awake. All the woo (e.g. "subtle bodies" "astral projections" "clairvoyance") jibber-jabbered already on this thread is just folks making shit up ex post facto generalized and myth-ified aka "New Agery". Not my speculative jam, Jack; but hey, whatever floats Neurath's boat, right? :smirk: