• JohnLocke
    18
    I live in Britain. I do not like it here. This is because society is largely based on a class system. The most obvious aspect of the British class system is accent. There are so many accents in this country, that speaking in the wrong one immediately places the speaker into a deterministic box by listeners. This is why I do not talk in British society. Speakers of one particular accent are more valued than speakers of others, irrespective of WHAT they say. Often, the most valued British accent is the one which sounds like 'I am better than you', creating a power difference between speaker and the being spoken to. The act of wanting to speak in that accent is an act of maliciousness too. To be better than others through accent is selfish. It exudes a sense of self-entitlement for no reason at all. This difference in accent creates differences in power, which over time, have translated into differences in socio-economic status such as wealth, leading to the unjust levels of inequality observed across British society today. Fortunately, I have learned to liberate myself from the class system by speaking in a European accent, which reflects my ancestral background.

    Accent is just one, but clearly the most obvious, aspect of British society that is destructive to individual achievement. The others are location like postcode, appearance and cultural taste.

    The most confusing aspect of the British class system is that, at least in modern British society, it is designed to 'block' personal growth and achievement. It acts as a burden from which there is little chance of escape. Your place within it is largely decided at birth and so it is a deterministic structure that dictates the direction of your life. Compare this with European and even American standards where there is an obviously better sense of social mobility and you can begin to see why British society is becoming more and more dysfunctional, fractured and unproductive than ever before. The British class system leads to a malaise across British society and constrains social, economic and cultural growth and the people are mired in a constant class relations struggle in day to day life. This blocks the economic productivity of the nation as a whole as its population can never achieve their truest potential in the American/European sense as a result of being fettered by this relentless struggle. Interestingly, the class system was never designed to be as counter-productive in a historical sense as it is today, as its creation was largely based on feudalism in order to maintain order and increase productivity, efficiency of farmers in Medieval times.

    Sadly, as British society became more advanced, the class system never disappeared and appears worse today than it has ever been. This is because it has, as society has grown, become more and more complex with many different elements deciding class, such that operating day to day life becomes mentally taxing, thus decreasing productivity, personal growth, achievement and ultimately blocking the socio-economic progress of the country.

    British society is deeply unfair. Thousands of people are falling victim to class system mechanics whether they are aware of it or not. Over time, it ultimately reduces their opportunity and life expectancy, leading to an unfulfilled life and failed dreams and aspirations for many. It is why Britain as a whole is a deeply unfair and broken country that is in need of deep reform. Even the United Nations complains of the deep structural inequalities throughout British society.

    Perhaps the saddest aspect to all of this and is most philosophical in its reasoning is the strong degree to which the British population seem to accept this torment inflicted on them, to such a point that they vote for it willingly. They elect leaders who entrench elements of the class system, whether through accent, appearance, name and job. It is lead to a vast mass of people who have been socially conditioned to accept and know their place within an arbitrarily created system of power that is designed to take away their power. Perhaps even more insidious is that British Universities, noticeably Oxbridge, are the bastion of the class system. They have promoted and sustained the class system in British society since their creation many centuries ago. Yet, they are regarded as morally superior places where young people must strive to attend, only to then be conditioned and swallowed into the class system where they remain forever, wallowing in a pit of unearned privileged at the cost of marginalising others in society. The class system is a struggle for power where should not be one.

    Ultimately, British society is corrupted by a sweeping overarching power structure that transcends all levels of its society, manifest in people and even the landscape those people frequent. Outside of the individual, architecture is the most visible manifestation of the class system. Therefore, walking around British society today, one cannot help but feel a deep sense of unrest, a juxtaposition between the increasingly progressive young people against the formal backdrop of discriminatory material objects which signify the apotheosis of the class system. This leads to a society struggling to reconcile its identity in modern times. The British class system has deep philosophical implications for the people living in British society, for it is unethical if human life is to be valued. The British do not seem to want a cleaner, more simple and fulfilled life by removing themselves from the class system. I do not know why. I can only assume there must be some underlying genetic cause as a result of being an island nation.

    ... Thoughts?
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k


    Nice neo-Marxist analysis. However, is there any evidence that British society is any more "unequal" than other societies like, say, India or some African countries?

    My feeling is that in most cases social and economic progress tends to be connected with education, upbringing, contacts to key people, etc. i.e., factors that are not always equally distributed across society, irrespective of the country you are talking about.

    As for "accent", I guess it depends on the job you are aiming to get. As a teacher, TV presenter, or working in a call center, etc., I think it would be reasonable for people to expect you to have an acceptable sort of accent.
  • Banno
    25.1k
    As a teacher, TV presenter, or working in a call center, etc., I think it would be reasonable for people to expect you to have an acceptable sort of accent.Apollodorus

    Acceptable to whom?

    And there's the rub.

    You've started a dozen threads but only made three comments. Why post if you are not here for the replies?
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    Acceptable to whom?Banno

    Employers and the people you are dealing with.

    If you have an accent that nobody can understand, then this can give rise to communication problems. There are practical limits to how far your accent can differ from normal.

    Obviously, if your job entails communicating via non-verbal means like email, then your spoken accent is irrelevant.
  • JohnLocke
    18


    Evidence? There is data such as economic data. Measures of social inequality. A lot of quantitative data has been produced by researchers which supports the concept of a north/south socio-economic divide based on class system relations. A 'them' Vs 'us' narrative is spun by the power centres such as media to maintain the class system integrity.

    It is true that education is a deciding factor in life success but I would argue that it is more accentuated in the British sense. For example, place within the class system decides contacts. Nepotism is common. Not the other way around as in other countries such as the USA. Like I say, the British class system is more deterministic because it alone decides education, contacts and socio-economic progress. It is an unnecessarily 'differentiating mechanism' that holds society back by allocating power to a few because they support the class system, materially.

    Define 'acceptable' accent? I assume those jobs you mention require someone to have an accent that sounds 'inclusive' in that it doesn't lead the listener to feel any sense of being marginalised or inferior.

    Sadly, in wider society, accents which sound like they belong to a higher social class can sound authoritarian and therefore exclusionary to the listener, as they have been socially conditioned to believe so. This is what creates the power imbalance. This is a social imbalance, which over time, translates into an economic imbalance for the country as you can imagine this happening on a population scale. Think of it as like a filtration effect. If you pour all the accents into the British class system sieve, only the ones I described fall through. It does this because British society is set up for this to happen as a result of social conditioning and how institutions are run and power is maintained from within.

    I think there is a scale problem. My description was more about what happens on the every day street level such as shopping or travelling on public transport and all those micro scale events producing a dysfunctional society collectively.
  • Banno
    25.1k
    Employers and the people you are dealing with.Apollodorus

    ...and there's the problem, the perpetuation of a certain accent.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k


    I think most countries have a "mainstream" accent that is understood across regional differences. Would a society be more equal and prosperous if greater linguistic diversity was imposed? And would that not lead to new forms of inequality? I think there are certain general norms that people have no problem with, for example, wearing a suit in the office, etc.
  • Banno
    25.1k



    ...imposed...Apollodorus

    Why not "accepted"?
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    It does this because British society is set up for this to happen as a result of social conditioning and how institutions are run and power is maintained from within.JohnLocke

    You could be right there. However, if you are talking about power, I think in every society there is a tendency to accumulate and monopolize power just as there is a tendency to accumulate wealth. And as long as this is the case, the power-holders will find ways to keep others away, if not on the basis of accent, maybe on the basis of ideology or some other criterion.

    BTW, just out of curiosity, what European accent are you using? What results would you say you have achieved by using it? And would you recommend this to others living in Britain and/or other countries?
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k


    Supposing it was imposed.

    Presumably, it would be suggested by the authorities. Some may accept it and others may not accept it. In the latter case, it would have to be imposed.
  • Banno
    25.1k

    To take an extreme example, I find that when in conversation with folk with Cerebral Palsy that affects speech, at first I cannot quite make out what is being said. But after a while, and with patience, their speech becomes transparent.

    Exposure to alternate accents leads to understanding and acceptance.

    Of course, this basic principle has more general application.
  • JohnLocke
    18


    I use a general European accent. Results differ depending on the individual I talk to and their position within the class system, of course! I'm often treated as an 'outsider' when I talk to a 'native' Briton who lives in a rural village and works a trade, whereas I'm treated with intrigue and curiosity by the middle class, like academics. You generally find the middle class enjoy European stuff while loathing anything British, whereas the working class tend to be more nationalist and support the Royal Family and grassroots English culture such as village traditions. This means the class system is often most obvious in rural locations such as village culture while being pretty much non-existent in cities. It's all a matter of scale..?

    I think this might be some kind of behaviour based on 'in group' preference..? Often you are treated better as a foreigner than as a native.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    Exposure to alternate accents leads to understanding and acceptance.Banno

    But people can discriminate against others on grounds of religion, political ideology, race, gender, etc. I don't know if accent is really that important. I've never seen it as particularly important myself.
  • Banno
    25.1k
    You're not in England, or have an accent that is not different to those with whom you come into contact.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k


    Very interesting. I do agree that it is a matter of scale. I think "village culture" tends to be quite local.

    Where would you say that class differences are greater, in rural or urban areas?

    You generally find the middle class enjoy European stuff while loathing anything British, whereas the working class tend to be more nationalist and support the Royal Family and grassroots English cultureJohnLocke

    So, would you say that the middle class are better than the working class?

    And do you think that "loathing anything British" is OK?
  • Tom Storm
    9.1k
    :100:
    Exposure to alternate accents leads to understanding and acceptance.

    Of course, this basic principle has more general application.
    Banno
  • Banno
    25.1k
    I can see why you would agree. I'll propound the thesis that exposure to variety from a young age leads to acceptance, and the corollary that lack of such exposure leads to xenophobia. Hence I advocate pluralism in preschool and early childhood.
  • JohnLocke
    18


    I think it is this localism that fosters an urge in locals to 'protect' their surroundings and this means resisting change, especially progressive ideas. The British class system is a good way to facilitate a resistance to change in those rural areas. It is very complicated as to why. Rural villages and their inhabitants prefer to be kept in a time-locked stasis where any subtle change is very noticeable and met with extreme caution.

    The class differences are not greater in rural or urban areas, just different. For example, in rural areas they manifest as accent, appearance, house type (detached, semi, terraced), schooling (state or private), postcode and job as probably the last. It might seem strange to place job as the last and least important in this list of criteria but in rural locations, if you own a large sized home on land but work in a local shop or post office, you are materially middle class. I will stop here as more description will lead to cultural cliche and stereotypes.

    In the urban case, class is first about accent and salary in second place. Those rural criteria often cannot be applied to city workers because they transcend them. Strangely, if the shop worker I describe was placed into a city environment, they would be seen as lower class 'peasantry' by a city worker. Why? The reasons are complex. Again, it is scale dependent, relative, depending on location.

    Better is also a relative term. I'd argue no class is better than another class as they each offer a different but equally interesting set of both positives and negatives. This is why I argue against the class system in my original post because I see it as completely redundant and outdated societal structure that is holding British society back.

    'Loathing anything British'. This is a strong statement. There may be some things which the middle class in Britain enjoy and some things which they do not. I'd argue, on balance, there are more things which they don't enjoy which are British than those things which they do enjoy. The middle classes seem inclined to constantly 'transcend' ideas of Britishness in a nationalist sense, but only because those are where the class system struggle is most obvious and frowned upon. I think an individual is allowed to loath if they choose. What they choose to loath is a matter of subjective preference. From an ethical perspective, to force ideas of loathing anything British onto others is facist. Sadly, this happens in Britain too.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    What they choose to loath is a matter of subjective preference. From an ethical perspective, to force ideas of loathing anything British onto others is facist. Sadly, this happens in Britain too.JohnLocke

    So, it seems that in some cases, some forms of loathing are replaced by others and it comes down to which forms of loathing are preferable. Sounds like a hard nut to crack. I wouldn't like to be in a position where I would have to decide.

    But I don't see how classes can be done away with unless we make everybody earn and spend an equal amount of money. I think this was one of Marx's original ideas that he later had to abandon as it was impracticable.

    Maybe the state can replace employers and pay everyone equal wages. But it will also have to force everyone to spend an equal amount, otherwise some might get the idea of spending less and end up being richer than others.
  • Tom Storm
    9.1k
    Absolutely critical. And you can even see that where folks come from areas of comparative homogeneity, whether accidental or intentional, into this gaping ignorance an aqueous sap of bigotry, assumption and fear is poured.
  • Banno
    25.1k
    Hmm. What we call "independent" schools; that is, those mostly funded Federally...
  • Tom Storm
    9.1k
    When I was a boy, here in Australia, if you wanted to be an actor or a radio personality, you generally had to speak with something approximating a received BBC accent. Anyone who used Australian vowels sounds or drawled or whatever was effectively excluded from a range of employment. I remember people describing the Australian accent as 'common' - and that was in Australia.
  • Tom Storm
    9.1k
    As you know there's an energetic welfare system subsidising privilege that is just seen as common sense and fairness by the toffs...
  • Hanover
    12.9k
    Accent, word choice, grammar, speed of conversation, sentence structure, tone, and all sorts of things convey information far greater than the simple defined literal message. Conclusions are drawn even from my written message here, even though you don't hear my watered down southern US accent. You assume a certain educational background, perhaps economic status, regional bias, etc. just from how I write.

    We're complex beings us humans, and the stereotypes we rely upon instinctively occur instantaneously. Those instincts may well be used unfairly to judge you, but what instincts one has say a tremendous amount about the person who has them as well.

    That I hear your accent and believe you are X means I am Y probably more than that you are actually X.

    But let us also not assume my instincts are necessarily incorrect because region, culture, and education all do correlate with certain attitudes and opinions, and these things also correlate with certain accents and manner of communication which are often accurately detected.
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k

    I thought that Apollodorus is in England, and, as far I can see in England, accent is low down on the scale of importance, but I am in London, where people are from all over the world.

    Generally, I read the outpost and as far as I can see it did not appear to reflect the class system as far as I can see, but, of course, it could be true of some remote parts. I think that the class system has broken down a lot because people are mobile through various factors, such as education. I think poverty can come to people from all backgrounds, and this has more of a real impact than class 'snobbery'

    Also, I think that there may even be an underclass, of people who do not fit in at all, often comprised of people who are homeless, often with untreated mental health problems. However, what I am describing is in London mainly, but I have seen it where my mum lives in Bedford too, so I am thinking that what I am talking about is probably happening in other places as well.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    I think that the class system has broken down a lot because people are mobile through various factors, such as education.Jack Cummins

    I must agree with that. I think that there is a working class, middle class, and upper class in every complex society. The system may be more rigid in some countries than in others, but fundamentally, it's the same story everywhere. You can only eliminate the class system by eliminating classes and classes can be eliminated only by making every citizen equal in all respects to the rest of society.

    Incidentally, @JohnLocke appears to be critical of the upper and working classes, which, presumably, means that he at least partly, identifies himself as middle class.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    You assume a certain educational background, perhaps economic status, regional bias, etc. just from how I write.Hanover

    However, the question seems to be whether you "loathe all things American" or live in the countryside, as a key criterion of classification.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    accentJohnLocke

    The accent, huh? That's both amazing and scary. Amazing because, an accent is like a ID tag that, the moment you open your mouth, gives away to the other person the income bracket you fall in, the company you keep, what kinda political affiliations you might have, your educational achievements (if any), and it may even be possible to narrow down your address to the street where you live, so and so forth. Scary, for the exact same reasons.

    An accent then reveals a lot of your personal information without the the listener having to make even the slightest effort. It's a kinda sorta dilemma: either you expose yourself or you zip it. Speech is silver, silence is golden. It all hangs together.
  • Tiberiusmoon
    139

    -Is living the UK.

    Like many countries england is has a social bias that influences the very culture of england.
    The social bias of influence in an accepting way has many forms: Class, spectator sports, religion, war, politics and so on.
    This conservatism or cultural bias of accepting social bias without an awareness to it leaves a majority blind to it.

    That is not to say it needs to be removed but made aware of it is key, much like how one can act violently in the form of emotional bias but awareness that you are angry allows you to control it.
    In order to live in such a class system you need to be at a level of cultural or social bias awareness where you can identify such bias in judgement.
    Using standard debate practices such as fallacies you can out debate them and call discrimination.

    But as I said; this level of awareness and debate requires good mental fortitude so that you yourself are not culturally or socially biased.
    In essence the next progressive stage in human ideology.
  • baker
    5.6k
    I don't know if accent is really that important. I've never seen it as particularly important myself.Apollodorus

    Depends on where you're from. Most countries in Europe have great dialectal diversity. Within one language, a particular dialect can be prestigious, while others considered less or more lowly. There's usually quite a stigma attached to the lowly ones.

    Take a look here for German dialects: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_dialects
    And this for general infor about dialects: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect


    I myself speak one dialect at home with my family, a supradialectal variant with the extended family, a variation of spoken standard Slovene in semi-formal situations, and standard Slovene in formal situations. But that's primarily because my native dialect is on the list of those least prestigious ones, and I don't want to be discriminated against. In contrast, someone whose native dialect is a prestigious one can make it through life without ever adapting and without ever speaking anything but it, even in school (except in written form).
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