• Banno
    24.8k
    This is the thing though I appreciate what you say if the big guy really wanted to give us clues about his existence he easily could do that throughout the universe with the laws of physics and the maths that drives it which through science we as humans are starting to unravel and discover and describe using maths as a language.Deus

    If there is a god, shouldn't his presence be overwhelmingly apparent?

    And indeed, theists often do make this claim, adding the corollary that atheists are being wilfully infelicitous (atheists lie).

    This position, although fanatical, has the advantage of at least being consistent.
  • Banno
    24.8k
    ...miracles...Gregory

    By definition, the results of science are not miraculous.
  • Banno
    24.8k
    If you are a believer you are obviously going to prefer agnosticism because there appears to be room for the apologist's familiar arguments.Tom Storm

    Yep.
  • Deus
    320
    That's the god of the holes; invoking god to explain something for which there is at present no scientific explanation.Banno

    Did not wish to invoke God but life arising from mere inanimate matter is a big leap for sure…and secondly thermal vents which started all sorts of wonderful chemical reactions to lead to simple organic life…these conditions were not there earth early on was full of lava. Yet planetary conditions allowed transformations to earths surface to happen. Where am I going with this?…Yes back to thermal vents…the odds of going from non organic rock to an organism that is able to self replicate …huge I tell you … so where does God come into this ? He doesn’t! What’s my point ? Exactly …just odds from rocks (non-life) to human beings all because of those thermal vents without invoking God at all, yet the atomic interactions between the different molecules ! Science …but how did this happen in the first place you ask…no God? Surely these elements were designed in such a way by a higher power to bind together and create something useful. Hydrogen and Oxygen combining together to form water? That’s useful … still though … God ? Nahhh

    Did not wish to invoke that.
    If your faith is based on science, then to be consistent your would be obliged to reject your faith.Banno

    Big Bang! We will never know nor have the capacity to know what happened before it. It’s not unreasonable to invoke a first mover.
  • Banno
    24.8k
    There's for options for any second-order predicate. So you left out "I don't believe that god doesn't exist"...presumably a weak form of atheism.

    Nor is it reasonable to attempt to entirely seperate knowledge and belief (@Tom Storm). Knowledge requires belief, in that you cannot know something you do not believe.
  • Banno
    24.8k
    life arising from mere inanimate matter is a big leap for sureDeus

    I don't agree. It arrises from my inanimate breakfast, for sure. Your incredulity is not an argument.

    And we would do well to steer clear of the evolution debate, for fear of rendering the thread impotent.

    As for a first mover, see this thread on causation: Causality, Determination and such stuff.
  • Deus
    320
    And we would do well to steer clear of the evolution debate, for fear of rendering the thread impotent.Banno

    Good idea let’s stay clear of it … I have no further arguments to present here for my theistic beliefs without sounding silly I guess it boils down to faith and personal opinion whether you believe in God, are a smart arse Atheist or a Prudent Agnostic.

    The Agnostics will never know, the atheist simply doesn’t and the theist is damn sure.
  • Banno
    24.8k
    I guess it boils down to faith and personal opinionDeus

    ...and that's were morality enters the discussion, since we would then be considering what one ought to believe and how one ought to act. When faith is belief despite the facts, it is unconscionable.

    I gather this thread is not going the way you thought it might.
  • Gregory
    4.7k


    One writer once wrote here that theism is "please spank me daddy" syndrome. A lot of the past has gone with the winds of time so physical explanations for life are tentative because it happened so long ago
  • Tom Storm
    9k
    Oops. Rookie mistake. Second time this month.
  • Tom Storm
    9k
    A lot of the past has gone with the winds of timeGregory

    You said it, Greg.
  • skyblack
    545


    It seems to me there is no "better" and the "best".

    Not knowing isn't the same as knowing. Whether that knowing affirms or denies.

    There is simply the fact, or the non-fact (belief). Anyone that sets aside facts isn't reason-able, whether they affirm or deny
  • Tom Storm
    9k
    I don't think this trend is isolated to this subject.Cheshire

    I agree.
  • skyblack
    545
    @Deus
    So......let's get back to the intelligence of intelligences.
  • Deus
    320
    I gather this thread is not going the way you thought it might.Banno

    Is it not ? I don’t delve into the nature of the almighty his ways are mysterious. As to how a human being should conduct himself well that’s up to them … although compassion should be valued highly. Do good deeds not for the sake of reward and just remember Santa knows if you’ve been a good boy! Above all though do not preach nobody likes that.

    and how one ought to actBanno

    An adult should have realised this by now, respect all. Value life recognise virtue do not feign affection be on good terms with all. Forgive mistakes give praise when it’s merited…enjoy life we only live it once.
  • Deus
    320
    So......let's get back to the intelligence of intelligences.skyblack

    Yes let’s! An omnipotence owes nothing to us especially proof to its existence…the proof is in the pudding.
  • Banno
    24.8k
    An omnipotence owes nothing to us...Deus

    Is that so? I had been told he loves us. Doesn't that involve his taking on some obligations towards us?
  • skyblack
    545
    Hearsay is silly.
  • Banno
    24.8k
    Hearsay is silly.skyblack

    As is heresy.
  • skyblack
    545
    Mere technicality, don't get lost in silliness.
  • Tom Storm
    9k
    the proof is in the pudding.Deus

    Problem with that is the pudding is used to prove either argument.
  • Deus
    320
    Is that so? I had been told he loves us. Doesn't that involve his taking on some obligations towards us?Banno

    Who told you that ? He’s a funny guy got a wicked sense of humour I tell you. If he told us he existed all scientific progress would come to a halt and we would be to dependable on him…this is the reason why there are so many atheists it’s all a bit hush hush. What’s love gotta do?
  • skyblack
    545
    @Deus

    Alright., i have no investment in this game....so will remove myself.
  • Tom Storm
    9k
    Are you a deist or a theist?
  • Deus
    320
    Problem with that is the pudding is used to prove either argument.Tom Storm

    Existence itself buddy where did we come from…poof pops the universe out of nowhere don’t you find it interesting. Bigger question…who created god how did existence itself come to be why is there something rather than nothing. How did it come into existence out of nowhere ? Very interesting questions to me
  • Cheshire
    1.1k
    He’s a funny guy got a wicked sense of humour I tell you. If he told us he existed all scientific progress would come to a halt and we would be to dependable on him…this is the reason why there are so many atheists it’s all a bit hush hush.Deus
    You suppose to know the outcome of God undeniably presenting itself to the world? Seems bold, like you imagine God thinks just like you. I think the atheists are being honest.
  • Deus
    320
    Are you a deist or a theist?Tom Storm

    Theist all the way, although the degree of his involvement in his creation is sometimes questionable.
  • Deus
    320
    You suppose to know the outcome of God undeniably presenting itself to the world? Seems bold, like you imagine God thinks just like you.Cheshire

    Just making an assumption I do not think the almighty would reveal himself to everyone all at once. Perhaps to the occasional individual.
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