Ergonomically speaking, it would be a waste of energy to be skeptical living in a community that values truth and so, over time living in one would eventually turn off the skeptic inside us. — TheMadFool
You've lost me. — 180 Proof
Hmm - I thought the key focus of skepticism was valuing truth above most things. I think sometimes people mistake skepticism for denialism and cynicism. — Tom Storm
Skepticism (doubtful until evidence is furnished) is pointless in a community that values truth. — TheMadFool
Probably only the case if you believe God exists. — Tom Storm
I wonder about that. The assumption there is that it only functions around deception. My skepticism starts with me and I value truth (in as much as truth is possible). I often find myself pondering 'Why do I think that?" What evidence do I have for that view?' 'Do I really have an opinion on this subject?' "What am I not considering here?' Etc. I just consider it a necessary part of interacting with the world. — Tom Storm
What I call God is not what most people call God, but it's the closet thing. I've had an ongoing experience for a year or so; that can't be accounted for otherwise. I've made every attempt to eliminate the possibility and failed to do so; including multiple psychologist. The other side of the experience is the inability to convey it in a meaningful way as if evidence isn't supposed to be possible. The moment I can identify or be notified of an inconsistency in what is a rational experience with no rational explanation I would welcome it.1. How have you arrived at your belief that God exists? Was it after some theoretical or logical proofs on God 's existence or some personal religious experience? Or via some other routes? — Corvus
I don't and if God has a will it intends us to be atheists.2. Why do you try to prove God in a theoretical / logical way, when already believing in God's existence? — Corvus
imaginary gold coin — tim wood
1. How have you arrived at your belief that God exists? Was it after some theoretical or logical proofs on God 's existence or some personal religious experience? Or via some other routes?
2. Why do you try to prove God in a theoretical / logical way, when already believing in God's existence? — Corvus
World greatly stunned, begins to widely read
‘The End of Faith’, ‘The God Delusion’,
And ‘god is Not Great’. — PoeticUniverse
I was brought up by a devoutly Catholic mother, educated in a working class mostly immigrant Catholic grammar school and then an elite Catholic high school, served mass as an altarboy from 2nd through 12th grade, and lastly considered the priesthood as a religious studies honors student. When I was a believer I'd sincerely believed I'd believed.
However, I gave up "God" for Lent during 11th grade after acknowledging that the Bible was unbelievable (both "too good" and "too bad" to be true), that the history of its making and ecclesiastical uses was largely dishonest, corrupting, overtly political, and finally recognizing that I'd never "truly believed" after all but only that I had merely conformed. I'd discovered that I could no long defend the indefensible on the basis of believing the unbelievable. That was 41 years ago, and I've been a freethinker ever since.
NB: The classic arguments in defense of (mono)theism are among the best arguments against 'theism as such' and the few theists who are also cogent, careful, thinkers whom I've ever encountered are uncomfortably aware of this. At the end of the day, they (must) lean heavily on "faith" to "justify" their fact-free beliefs (superstitions). — 180 Proof
have nothing to do with my position, though I am sure it might with other theists' posts and positions. For example.In response the cry of the fond is often, "It could be! It could be!" And there could be a monster under the bed or in the closet. But there isn't. Too many beds have been looked under, too many closets opened and illuminated. — tim wood
There's the real, which can also be called the natural. If there is a God, God is not supernatural, but part of the real, part of nature or all of nature, perhaps. Both theists and non-theists have run with the idea of the supernaural, sometimes taking it as synonymous with the transcendant. Like we have for naturalists a monism. Nature is all there is. But theists are dualists with a natural and a supernatural. And, yes, some, read some, theists go along with this. But other theists do not. You have phenomena that have been verified via, science say, and you have other phenomena that have not. These latter need not be supernatural. They might not exist or they might, but in neither case need they be supernatural, just phenomena that have not yet been verified. Rogue waves and elephant long distance communication were not supernatural phenomena when they were not verified to the satisfaction of the consensus of scientists, for example. They were purported natural phenomena that did not fit with then current models in science. The people who believed in these phenomena, though often labelled irrational then, were not irrational, even though the phenomena were not verified at that time to a consensus of scientists.With some difficulty I translate this as: not supernatural=natural; not natural=not real. — tim wood
Those were not parts of some syllogism. I was pointing out that what is not currently verified now, in science, need not be a phenomenon that is in some special ontological category. It could be,as elephant communication turned out to be, quite natural.Someting about what some people thought about elephants, followed by your if there is a god, then it is natural or real. Which hpypothetical syllogism is easy enough to grant. — tim wood
I understood that question.Which you did not answer. I then made the mistake of asking you a simpler question, which apparently you did not comprehend:
I know the difference between an imaginary gold coin and a real gold coin. Do you? — tim wood — tim wood
Where did I assume that true for me is true?So I'll ask that: when you say something is true, what do you mean? It appears you mean that you buy it as true-for-you. But news flash, true-for-you is not true. — tim wood
I don't appear to claim that. Which is you saying and claiming things about what I think and precisely why I started responding the way I did with 'you' and 'you' that you think is bad form. You responded to me as if I was a certain kind of theist presenting arguments for the existence of God. And you repeatedly told me, explicitly and implicitly what I thinking.You appear to claim material existence of things not ideas and also not material. — tim wood
If it's a delusion, more fool me! — Cuthbert
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