Conceiving Of Death.

TheMadFool

What I'm really interested in and what I guess is germane to many philosophical issues via ontology is the (in)conceivability of nonexistence, an euphemism, I realized only now, for death.

Can we, has anyone, conceived of nonexistence/death?

I recall an interview in which Sam Harris (atheist, author, neuroscientist) claims that to believe nonexistence (I mean death) is unthinkable is, as he put it, "...for a lack of trying..." He explains: there are people in Paris, his choice of city, who don't know you exist; in other words, you don't exist as far as Parisians are concerned. That, according to Sam Harrris, is to give you a glimpse of what nonexistence is!

I'm inclined to agree because I too once, many many suns ago, contemplated on death and the way I did it matches Sam Harris' technique. First I imagined the house that I was in, the trees outside, the vehicles on the road and pedestrians on the sidewalk , I tried to put everything I could recall about my neighborhood in a mental picture, everything except myself. That was nonexistence/death to me. I felt a unsettling coldness in my heart but this isn't important. What is is the fact that nonexistence can be conceived of (in this way).

However, this technique of thinking about death/nonexistence has a disturbing and yet interesting implication. We're dead or more to the point I am dead/nonexistent to Parisians!

I'm (as good as) dead! I (practically) don't exist! In Paris that is.

TPF: We're sorry to announce that TheMadFool, a member of the forum for 5 years, has passed away after a long battle with reason and knowledge. :joke:

Parisian: :meh:

A bitcoin for your thoughts...

180 Proof

Unconsciousness.
Forgetting.
Thinking 'the contingency of thinking' (Brassier).

These are as much as I can conceive of nonexistence.

Corvus

↪TheMadFool

One can also try conceive the times and world before one's birth. That would be one's non existence conception too, if it were possible. Would it be the same non existence as after one's death?

Corvus

Unconsciousness.
Forgetting. — 180 Proof

Is it not self contradiction to say one can be conscious on one's unconsciousness?

Corvus

He explains: there are people in Paris, his choice of city, who don't know you exist; in other words, you don't exist as far as Parisians are concerned. That, according to Sam Harrris, is to give you a glimpse of what nonexistence is! — TheMadFool

I feel that death is only significant to the one who is facing one, or had lived and died. It is a personal historical event only meaningful the dead himself. Parisians not knowing the dying, or anyone living and existing has no philosophical significance whatsoever in one's death or existence or non existence.

TheMadFool

Unconsciousness — 180 Proof

Indeed, we can imagine ourselves unconscious, even as a rotting, stinkbomb of a corpse as recommended by certain Tibetan Buddhists.

Forgetting — 180 Proof

Bingo! One can't remember anything before you existed and being unable to recall parts of one's life is in that sense just another way death makes itself known to us.

Thinking 'the contingency of thinking' (Brassier). — 180 Proof

I'd like some details on that if you don't mind. What I feel is being alluded to is the fact that thinking, what we feel is an integral part of existence, is contingent - it needn't have to be.

One can also try conceive the times and world before one's birth — Corvus

See my reply to 180 Proof above. However, as I recall now, forgetting = not recording. I hope you catch my drift.

Corvus

See my reply to 180 Proof above. However, as I recall now, forgetting = not recording. I hope you catch my drift. — TheMadFool

Imagining own death seem just imagining only which has no real significance again in one's real life apart from having some nightmares? :) Suppose one can imagine anything. I feel death is something one cannot experience directly until it comes to oneself. But when it does, one is no longer around in the world, so cannot know about it. But sure, one can imagine it in the boundary of one's imagination only.

TheMadFool

Imagining own death seem just imagining only which has no real significance again in one's real life apart from having some nightmares? — Corvus

@180 Proof (only if interested)

Whenever ( :chin: ) I encounter these words [infinity, nothing] and others of its ilk (so-called unknownables) my mind actually draws a blank. Thanks for the update (I see myslef as a computer, in need of broadband and the latest "updates". I hope you don't hold that against me. It's not a choice.)

Anyway, an analogy seems to be the first port of call :point: Tesseract. Just like 4D objects (inconceivable so they say) cast 3D shadows, these shadows being more mind-friendly, unknowables too should/could have shadows that our minds can, in a sense, grasp. — TheMadFool

The quote is from another thread but is relevant to the discussion.

The mind (imagination) is capable of only grasping at the shadow of death/nonexistence, a few of them appear in 180 Proof's post and one in the OP.

Corvus

The quote is from another thread but is relevant to the discussion.

The mind (imagination) is capable of only grasping at the shadow of death/nonexistence, a few of them appear in 180 Proof's post and one in the OP. — TheMadFool

Sure. I feel that it is impossible to conceive realistically one's own death before one's death. Because even one can imagine one's own death, the imagination is happening in one's mind which is live and active. One can think about one's death, but it is then totally different mental activity. An interesting topic.

Jack Cummins

↪TheMadFool

I think that there are various aspects involved in contemplating our death and one aspect is imagining the world without our existence in it. This would include the potential effects that our death will have on significant others, as well as the significant of our non existence will have in the world. However, I do believe that you are thinking more about non existence from a subjective point of consciousness.

I believe that it is possible that the encounter with our non existence through death may vary from person to person. Here, I am suggesting that the transition to death may involve varying states, some more gradual than others, with some people being more conscious that death is being encountered than others. Perhaps, some people fade into unconscious gradually through dreamless sleep.

On the other hand, there is the near death experiences phenomena. Even if these don't necessarily point to immortality itself, they may represent a transitional state of consciousness, and we don't know how they continue in the process of dying because the people who are in the position of describing them returned to life. This leads me to think that the encounter with death represents an 'unknown' experience, and I think that this is conveyed symbolically by Hindu mystics, who speak of, 'Atman' merging with' Brahman'. In other words, self consciousness, or death of the ego may occur, while our bodies return to dust, as an aspect of the recycling of matter.

Nils Loc

Can we, has anyone, conceived of nonexistence/death? — TheMadFool

Yes. When something is dead it no longer alive and from a qualitative outlook of being in the world and seeing death, beings that have decomposed and personalities that have disappeared, we understand what is generally understood with relation to these deathly experiences. :P

Deep sleep is just like death because death is presumably just the absence of the 1st person view (zero qualia). Since time only passes for the living, you'll be awake far too soon after your dead... but it won't be you because you will have died. You'll be something, either Jane or John Doe, or something very weird but natural.

Edit: The metaphorical/mythic me wants to conceive of the "birth of death" as the act of bringing death(from life) into the world, the cloaked figure fond of drinking coffee, waiting to meet you at the right time and right moment with an accident or a mutually planned meeting.
The white cloaked figure, counterpart, refractable into any color of the rainbow, is getting you into non-fatal life accidents.

sime

I recall an interview in which Sam Harris (atheist, author, neuroscientist) claims that to believe nonexistence (I mean death) is unthinkable is, as he put it, "...for a lack of trying..." He explains: there are people in Paris, his choice of city, who don't know you exist; in other words, you don't exist as far as Parisians are concerned. That, according to Sam Harrris, is to give you a glimpse of what nonexistence is! — TheMadFool

There are people in Paris observing the Eiffel tower, who are not observing the computer monitor you are observing; in other words, your computer monitor doesn't exist as far as Parisians are concerned.

And so presumably according to Sam Harris, he has given you a glimpse as to what the non-existence of your monitor is.

TheMadFool

As a further point @Corvus

Firstly, it seems rather hard to believe that the mind can conceive of actual death (no mind). The mind hasn't/can't experience death because once death occurs, the mind winks out of existence. It's kinda like asking a man what labor pain feels like.

Secondly, but, it could be said, that's precisely what death is. @180 Proof mentioned forgetting as a good way of thinking about mortality. I'm going out on a limb and say that at some level, remembering = conceiving. If so, not remembering/conceiving anything (death) is equivalent to remembering/conceiving nothing. Meno's paradox!

:chin:

dreamless sleep — Jack Cummins

A very fascinating take on death - dreamless sleep. This particular way of viewing death is, if I may say so, mind death but Sam Harris' and my way of looking at morte is body death. I suppose this distinction is vital to our general approach to Thanatos. It'a unclear to me how?

Deep sleep — Nils Loc

See my reply to Jack Cummins.

To All

We can conceive of body death. Just imagine yourself as a decaying corpse in a coffin 6 feet underground with a headstone jutting out of the earth. We can also try Sam Harris' what's wrong with this picture? (the nonexistent/dead you is missing) technique.

We can't concieve of mind death. What is it that we can think of as absent from a given mental image of the world? what is it that can be lying in a grave? What is it that mind can say with an acceptable level of confidence is missing/ended/extinguished upon death. The body? No! Then what?

There are people in Paris observing the Eiffel tower, who are not observing the computer monitor you are observing; in other words, your computer monitor doesn't exist as far as Parisians are concerned.

And so presumably according to Sam Harris, he has given you a glimpse as to what the non-existence of your monitor is. — sime

:ok:

unenlightened

Imagine lacking all imagination; think the unthinkable; not only can it not be done, it hasn't any meaning. There is nothing one has failed to do except to notice the knot in the language.

Nils Loc

We can't concieve of mind death. — TheMadFool

Don't you mean we can't experience mind death (ie. the absence of a mind). We can conceive of "mind death" as the absence of a mind, if we infer that a mind exists to begin with. But we sleep and sleep is always bracketed by what isn't sleep/unconsciousness (the qualia horrorshow).

TheMadFool

it hasn't any meaning — unenlightened

Whenever ( :chin: ) I encounter these words [infinity, nothing] and others of its ilk (so-called unknownables) my mind actually draws a blank. Thanks for the update (I see myslef as a computer, in need of broadband and the latest "updates". I hope you don't hold that against me. It's not a choice.)

Anyway, an analogy seems to be the first port of call :point: Tesseract. Just like 4D objects (inconceivable so they say) cast 3D shadows, these shadows being more mind-friendly, unknowables too should/could have shadows that our minds can, in a sense, grasp. — TheMadFool

There is nothing one has failed to do except to notice the knot in the language. — unenlightened

A salient point I must admit. For my money, language was not designed as much for cogitation than it was for communication. Thus there are some experiences that can only be conveyed via metaphor. Put simply, the set of experiences humans are capable exceeds the set of words that language us. Wittgenstein may be relevant but I don't know enough to comment any more than I already have.

Don't you mean we can't experience mind death — Nils Loc

Yep but that was my point. Since the mind can't experience death, it can't conceive of death.

Nils Loc

Yep but that was my point. Since the mind can't experience death, it can't conceive of death. — TheMadFool

So also, your mind cannot conceive of dreamless sleep. :P (Our use of language is annoying.)

unenlightened

Since the mind can't experience death, it can't conceive of death. — TheMadFool

This is a bit silly. I cannot experience tomorrow, I cannot experience what is over the horizon, I cannot experience what is in the next room. Most of what we talk about is what we cannot or do not experience. "Conceiving is what we do instead of experiencing.

sime

How does a person experience dementia? presumably he finds himself learning about things that he has good reason to believe he has previously forgotten. But how does he classify an experience as being of something forgotten? Whatever the experiential criteria, perhaps an avid learner should consider dementia to be the ultimate learning experience.

TheMadFool

This is a bit silly. I cannot experience tomorrow, I cannot experience what is over the horizon, I cannot experience what is in the next room. Most of what we talk about is what we cannot or do not experience. "Conceiving is what we do instead of experiencing. — unenlightened

My bad! I wasn't clear enough but, in my defense, you're being a tad silly too. Imagining the future , what lies over the horizon, what's in the next room, etc. are conceivable only in terms of past & present actual experiences. Death, on thep other hand, can't be conceived because there's no experience (past/present) we can draw from to make that possible.

How does a person experience dementia? presumably he finds himself learning about things that he has good reason to believe he has previously forgotten. But how does he classify an experience as being of something forgotten? Whatever the experiential criteria, perhaps an avid learner should consider dementia to be the ultimate learning experience. — sime

Excelente!

Dementia is basically forgetfullness taken to extremes. Your memories are being erased in ways and degrees classifiable as an illness. It reminds me of the statement, "I wasn't born yesterday, you know!"

unenlightened

Death, on thep other hand, can't be conceived because there's no experience (past/present) we can draw from to make that possible. — TheMadFool

What a sheltered life you lead! Have you never killed, or come across a corpse, or watched a dying? And to pre-empt the most obvious response, one gets the idea of oneself from seeing other people; if there were no others, one would not be able to imagine otherness, and one would be the world. The ideas of life and death both arise from experience of (m)others.

TheMadFool

What a sheltered life you lead! Have you never killed, or come across a corpse, or watched a dying? And to pre-empt the most obvious response, one gets the idea of oneself from seeing other people; if there were no others, one would not be able to imagine otherness, and one would be the world. The ideas of life and death both arise from experience of (m)others. — unenlightened

To All

We can conceive of body death. Just imagine yourself as a decaying corpse in a coffin 6 feet underground with a headstone jutting out of the earth. We can also try Sam Harris' what's wrong with this picture? (the nonexistent/dead you is missing) technique.

We can't concieve of mind death. What is it that we can think of as absent from a given mental image of the world? what is it that can be lying in a grave? What is it that mind can say with an acceptable level of confidence is missing/ended/extinguished upon death. The body? No! Then what? — TheMadFool

These deeds (kill), these objects (corpse), these events (dying) are, to my knowledge, merely surrogates of nonexistence/death. They aren't the real McCoy so to speak. They're, as I attempted to put up for discussion, merely shadows (Plato's cave analogy & 3D projections of 4D objects like the tesseract) of nonexistence/death - they're ultimately the mind trying hard to conceive of the inconceivable, here death!

Set all of the above aside for the moment. All I ask of you is to present here for our benefit a lucid & vivid description of, not body death (easy problem of death), but of mind death (hard problem of death). If I'm in anywhere close to the truth, the words "DOES NOT COMPUTE!" should make sense to you. In other words, expect your mind to crash like a computer and that, ironically, is as close to an experience of actual death as possible.

TheMadFool

So also, your mind cannot conceive of dreamless sleep. :P (Our use of language is annoying.) — Nils Loc

That's one of the nearest observation towers if you wanna take a look at Hades!

Manuel

↪TheMadFool

I've frequently pointed out that I see no good reason to think the "time after" life ceases will be different than the "time before" life began. I was nothing and will be nothing, same state.

So the best I can do is extrapolate to the very earliest memories I have, probably the first time I remember having a conscious perception of a building. When I try to go back and think about it, try to focus on anything before, I find that no single attribute I can make about existence applies.

I suppose that if you've ever had the experience of being black-out drunk, might be similar to the state before birth.

But for some reason, I'd like to know why, this suggestion is not thought about as frequently as I think it should...

TheMadFool

I've frequently pointed out that I see no good reason to think the "time after" life ceases will be different than the "time before" life began. I was nothing and will be nothing, same state. — Manuel

Sounds reasonable and also extremely intriguing. @Wayfarer Zen koans (oh! I hope I don't sound like a broken record) are supposed to force us into the Mu mind state (conscious without being conscious of anything) which I consider a thoughtless state much like how we were before we were born and how we'll be, as per your statement, after we die ("...same state...").

What did your face look like before your parents were born? — Wikipedia

Zen Buddhists seem to have a developed a taste for extremes - the Koan could've asked, "what did your face look like before you were born?" but no, that was just too mild for Chinese & Japanese Zen masters - carpe jugulum, make the Koan such that it causes maximum confusion and so, "what did your face look like before your parents were born?" :lol:

This is on point I hope.

TheMadFool

Update

near death experiences — Jack Cummins

Parisians not knowing the dying — Corvus

watched a dying — unenlightened

Dying can be experienced and thus conceived. Sorry for failing to notice this earlier - I'm not the sharpesr knife in the drawer I'm afraid.

I felt a unsettling coldness in my heart but this isn't important. — TheMadFool

:broken: :fear: :death:

Manuel

↪TheMadFool

The reason we find nothing problematic - I think - is because we are knowledgeable creatures as a matter of our constitution. We can categorize, make sense of, measure, compare, contemplate, appreciate, contextualize, discern, wonder about, etc. We just can't help it.

So imagining a "state" in which we can do none of these things at all goes against our nature (while being awake, at least), hence the agony.

But there is a silver lining. While we are afraid of death, I think that if we try to apply fear, worry, anxiety, pain and all the bad things in life to the "state before" birth, none apply. Not even boredom. How bored were you before you were born? Huh?

So we miss out on the good, but we skip the bad. I think there are much worse conditions in this life than not feeling anything.

"what did your face look like before your parents were born?" — TheMadFool

Like a physical field or a particle, I'd guess. Nothing too exciting. :wink:

I fear I may have stepped on @Wayfarer's toe here. Uh-oh.

Jack Cummins

↪TheMadFool

I think that the truth of the matter is that we don't know what 'near death experiences' signify. We don't know how widespread they are. I think that the main difficulty in interpreting them is the fact that the people who had them did not die. But, even if they are just a result of oxygen deprivation, they may be an important aspect of the experience of dying. I think that there are epistemological problems with knowing about the actual moment of death as the ultimate end because none of us have really died, including Sam Harris.

TheMadFool

The reason we find nothing problematic - I think - is because we are knowledgeable creatures as a matter of our constitution. We can categorize, make sense of, measure, compare, contemplate, appreciate, contextualize, discern, wonder about, etc. We just can't help it.

So imagining a "state" in which we can do none of these things at all goes against our nature (while being awake, at least), hence the agony. — Manuel

I have a feeling you're on the right track. I see a vicious cycle forming even as I write this. Extreme suffering is another path to achieving the Mu state:

1. I'm in agony, thus I can't think.

2. I can't think, thus I'm in agony

Thus, the two are what I'd like to call a deadly duo - a positive feedback loop that spirals out of control and before you realize what's happened, you're in thick soup! :chin:

But there is a silver lining. While we are afraid of death, I think that if we try to apply fear, worry, anxiety, pain and all the bad things in life to the "state before" birth, none apply. Not even boredom. How bored were you before you were born? Huh? — Manuel

Most interesting! So, if the vicious cycle I spoke of above is true, we were all in hell :fear: :grimace: (before we were born) and we're all going back to hell (after we die). I wonder what antinatalists have to say about this?! @schopenhauer1

oxygen deprivation — Jack Cummins

I'm a chain smoker, depriving myself of oxygen is a regular feature in my life!

TheMadFool

More updates

The Unthinking-Suffering Equivalence

1. If in pain, not thinking (too painful to think)
2. If not thinking, in pain (people dislike being called a fool)
Ergo,
3. Pain = Not thinking (1, 2 logical equivalence)
Ergo,
4. Maximum pain (hell) = Thinking impossible (pesudo-nonexistence)
Ergo,
5. If we were/are capable of thinking but we didn't (before birth and after death), it could be said that we were in hell (before birth) and we'll go back to hell (after death).

Thanatos is the one true religion and Algea is his prophet!

180 Proof

↪Corvus

Sure, but I didn't say that.

Conceiving Of Death.

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