What is Information?

Pop

Consciousness integrates information. Nothing else!

In a moment of consciousness All of one’s historical information ( biological and social ), bodily sensation, and environmental information is integrated to a point, and life is no more than a procession of such points. So, what is this information, that we are entirely enmeshed in?

What is it’s source? Can we define it?

Some definitions:

Information is merely relations between physical entities viewed from our modeling perspective, a distinctly human formal causality. "Information" is a reifying of all the observed causal interactions between a given set of existents, and lacks independence from matter. The information a gene, quantum process etc. contains is not ontologically distinguishable from the structure of its components, so any realist account of biological occurrences must involve a substance, not a probability.— @Enrique

Information can be thought of as the resolution of uncertainty; it answers the question of "What an entity is" and thus defines both its essence and the nature of its characteristics.[2][3] The concept of information has different meanings in different contexts.[4] Thus the concept becomes synonymous to notions of constraint, communication, control, data, form, education, knowledge, meaning, understanding, mental stimuli, pattern, perception, proposition, representation, and entropy. - Wikipedia.

“ Information is distinctions” – @Frank

“The difference that makes a difference”, - Bateson

Some thoughts:

An information philosopher studies the origin and evolution of information structures, the foundations for all our ideas. - Information Philosopher

If we could paint all the information in the world grey, the earth would be a homogenous greyness all the way to the upper atmosphere, and nothing would be distinct. Everything would be the same greyness melding into everything else, and we could derive no information from it. The world would be a nothing, and there could be no consciousness.

If we could paint all the information in the universe grey, then the Universe would disappear into an informationless nothing. In a sense, the big bang is a story of information emergence and evolution. The perturbations of energy that @Gnomon calls Enformation ( energy + information ), is the basis of everything. These perturbations are information about a substance, and the way substances can interact depends upon the perturbations they posses. So, in a sense, when substances integrate, it is their information that integrates.

Everything that exists, exists as a body of evolving information, integrating more and more information into itself, and it all has its source in the distinction of one pattern against another, and through a process of placing every pattern into its rightful place to create an integrated whole pattern, a big picture consciousness emerges.

What are your thoughts, queries, arguments, definitions, and insights? It would be great to have a general understanding of information on this forum.

Daniel

↪Pop

I wanna say information is not a quality of an object but depends on an interaction; so, the way a satellite orbiting the Earth "experiences" Earth is different from the way the moon experiences Earth. A particular interaction reveals only a particular amount of the total information that could be given by an object (which would be contained in the totality of its interactions - information is a quality of an interaction and not a quality of a single object).

Edit: an object does not have information; an interaction does have information.

Banno

In a moment of consciousness All of one’s historical information ( biological and social ), bodily sensation, and environmental information is integrated to a point, and life is no more than a procession of such points. So, what is this information, that we are entirely enmeshed in? — Pop

This sounds like it says something useful, but consider:

In a moment of consciousness All of one’s history ( biological and social ), bodily sensation, and environment are integrated to a point, and life is no more than a procession of such points. So, what is it that we are entirely enmeshed in?

How is this question - entierly sans information - different? What is "information" doing in that paragraph?

hope

information doesnt exist in reality, or in the mind. its just a word that stands for nothing lol

there is reality, which is a pattern and the mind makes a map of that pattern, which is a reduced version of the pattern used to avoid pain and attain pleasure.

it uses association to connect things.

language is nothing but association.

math is nothing but a map of the territory.

Cheshire

Clearly it's the currently unassailable missing dimension which directs the stuff of existence; of which we can certainly discuss; if we choose to.

Daniel

↪Pop

Check this. Imagine two objects, object A and object B. In the absence of object B, object A behaves in a particular way; let's call it the a state of object A - A(a). In the presence of object B (and assuming A and B interact), object A behaves in a distinct way; the a' state of object A - A(a'). The same goes for object B in the absence and presence of object A. However, object A in its a state will affect object B differently to its effect on B when in the a' state; that is,

A(a) -------> B != A(a') -------> B [the effect of A(a) on B is not the same as the effect of A(a') on B - and the system evolves due to the feedback loop that arises from the interaction between A and B].

Information is stored in this feedback loop.

Pop

an object does not have information; an interaction does have information. — Daniel

I think what you are talking about is transmitted information? The only way for us to know a substance is through the information the substance possesses. The perturbations a substance possesses, its shape and size, texture, colour , smell, etc is information, and this gets transmitted to us via frequencies of light as sight, or discreet molecules as smell, etc.

Information is stored in this feedback loop. — Daniel

Unfortunately I don't understand the notation. I would say the qualities a substance possesses ( information ) interact with the qualities another substance possesses. A sponge interacting with water would soak up the water, whilst a rock interacting with water would sink to the bottom. So it's the qualities that interact and integrate.

If you are saying that in the absence of an interaction, information is irrelevant, then I would agree.

Pop

Clearly it's the currently unassailable missing dimension which directs the stuff of existence; of which we can certainly discuss; if we choose to. — Cheshire

I feel similarly. It is the primal stuff, as a co-element of any stuff. But it is so hard to pin down. If you have a simple definition I would be interested to hear it?

Pop

information doesnt exist in reality, or in the mind. its just a word that stands for nothing lol — hope

I would have said everything is information, rather then nothing.

Pop

How is this question - entierly sans information - different? What is "information" doing in that paragraph? — Banno

Information makes it all possible. Your version provides no reason. As a singular substance, nothing would be possible. But as distinct quantities with their own qualities interacting and integrating and evolving, something is possible.

The perturbations of a substance is "information" about it. It is these perturbations of various substances that are interacting, imo, and causing things to be. This extends to neurobiology where, I believe, every thought has its neural correlate, which I take to be some physical pattern.

Enrique

Everything that exists, exists as a body of evolving information, integrating more and more information into itself, and it all has its source in the distinction of one pattern against another, and through a process of placing every pattern into its rightful place to create an integrated whole pattern, a big picture consciousness emerges. — Pop

It should be recognized that consciousness is not merely a product of complexity but also the kind of substance. A huge ball of yarn will never produce consciousness no matter how complex it is, and it is my opinion that action potentials/synapses alone won't either, and neither will inorganically organized atoms. It is only very specific molecular assemblages existing within a particularly concentrated electromagnetic field and welded together by electric charge that give rise to consciousness in matter as we presently know it.

This does not necessarily preclude universal consciousness, but it must be made of a different substance than those we have thus far classified. Hylomorphism: matter and form are codependent while constituting information. Form as the relationship between particulars is not exclusively responsible for function.

hope

I would have said everything is information, rather then nothing. — Pop

Reality contains patterns and connections and cause & effect. You can interpret that as "information" if you want but it's not.

"Information" is just a word that stands for parts of reality the mind uses to create a map then used to avoid pain and attain pleasure.

Cheshire

I feel similarly. It is the primal stuff, as a co-element of any stuff. But it is so hard to pin down. If you have a simple definition I would be interested to hear it? — Pop

The simplest is what we call data. The origin of data is information. It's what differentiates something from empty space upon experience. I think people are a type of animal that have the capacity to reflect this "thing" and it takes the form of a metaphysical object that itself can be manipulated. We can record or imagine data.

Olivier5

you have a simple definition I would be interested to hear it? — Pop

The shape that things take.

Pop

Information is stored in this feedback loop. — Daniel

On further consideration, you are correct, strictly speaking, the message ( transmission ) contains the information that we receive, and it is likely to be lossy ( Shannon entropy ). But the transmission contains data not of the message, but of an object. We are conscious of the object described in the message, but the message itself is normally subconscious.

Information is a very broad concept. What I'm focusing on is how the form of an object ( in it's widest sense ) informs the message, which in turn informs neurobiology. Thus a pattern of data is physically transformed from object, to wavelengths of light, to be sensed, and ultimately causes a particular form in mind, in accordance with neuroplasticity.

Outlander

What is disinformation? From there you begin to gather what can be called an answer. As relative as it may be. Furthermore, what is the difference between information and education?

frank

The black hole information paradox is where my interest in it started.

Pop

"Information" is just a word that stands for parts of reality the mind uses to create a map then used to avoid pain and attain pleasure. — hope

I mostly agree with your statement, but what is the evolutionary path, and underlying mechanism that causes this to be so?

hope

underlying mechanism that causes this to be so? — Pop

Patterns are eternal

Pop

Hylomorphism: matter and form are codependent while constituting information. Form as the relationship between particulars is not exclusively responsible for function. — Enrique

Form, in its broadest sense, is what interacts. Function follows form.
When one Wavicle interacts with another, their information ( frequency and amplitude ) integrates to create a resultant Wavicle. The resultant Wavicle in its form ( frequency and amplitude ) memorizes the interaction. This being a fundamental interaction is present in everything subsequent to it, as the basis of everything subsequent to it.

Patterns are eternal — hope

What are patterns?

Pop

The black hole information paradox is where my interest in it started. — frank

Is a black hole a paradox?

In Hawking's original formulation of his radiation process, that radiation carried no information away with it. But as the black hole emits radiation, it evaporates, eventually disappearing altogether — hence the so-called black hole information paradox. - Google.

What are your thougts?

Pop

What is disinformation? From there you begin to gather what can be called an answer. — Outlander

I'm not sure I follow. Can you elaborate please?

Outlander

↪Pop

Eh just a longtime fan of the old adage that is "when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth"

See. Take you. Why are you not sure you follow as opposed to simply dismissing my post as incoherent nonsense, which if so I appreciate your courtesy in not mentioning so. I've given you not information, but a request for information, that actually makes you seek the information you were already seeking, just in different places. Tricky, eh?

hope

What are patterns? — Pop

Unique arrangements of substance.

Pop

↪Outlander

I don't see it as incoherent nonsense at all. I just wish you would provide some answers rather then further questions - I'm already drowning in those! :lol:

Shannon's information theory raises a similar, perhaps the same, issue. Roughly, the information that is understood, that gets through, is already established information. The information that does not get through, is the entropy of the message. This is the new information that has not been understood but is potentially the most valuable part of the message ** as it provides new information.

Pop

Unique arrangements of substance. — hope

Sounds like "form" to me.

hope

Sounds like "form" to me. — Pop

The only thing that exists is patterns of substance.

Humans don't exist.

Pop

The only thing that exists is patterns of substance. — hope

I think so, but I'm not at all certain, so am looking for counterarguments.

What exists is the evolution of informational structure, and humanity is the ultimate example of this.

hope

informational structure — Pop

There is no information, only various amounts of complexity.

frank

a black hole a paradox?

In Hawking's original formulation of his radiation process, that radiation carried no information away with it. But as the black hole emits radiation, it evaporates, eventually disappearing altogether — hence the so-called black hole information paradox. - Google.

What are your thougts? — Pop

I don't want to derail your thread, but exploring that would be a good way to get a grasp of what physicists mean by information. Do you want to go in that direction?

Pop

There is no information, only various amounts of complexity. — hope

If we can capture that complexity in a singular concept such as information, then we can deal with the enormous complexity quite simply.

What is Information?

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