• TheVeryIdea
    27
    The second law of thermodynamics essentially says that any system will tend towards thermodynamic equilibrium, i.e. the universal tendency is for energy to be evenly distributed. This applies to the whole universe as much as a heater in your house and this gives rise to the idea of the heat death of the universe which is a state where ultimately the universe will end up at a evenly distributed temperature and at that point there is no energy gradient to drive any physical processes, such as life.

    Somewhere in the universe is a fairly average star, the Sun, dutifully spewing its energy into the void, cooling itself down and generally following the second law when up pops a blue green planet in orbit around the sun. The green is trees and plants and they have a knack of storing energy in the form of oil, coal and other hydrocarbons. This will never do, it is cheating the universe from getting to its natural, evenly temperate state as quickly as it might. So on Earth there is a pressure to do something about those hydrocarbons and after a lot failed attempts humans evolved and uniquely we could control fire. Not just control it we had a thirst for it, almost as if we evolved specifically to exploit that small energy gradient created by the trees.

    So is our control of the energy gradient, which allows us to live anywhere on the planet because we can heat ourselves and cook otherwise inedible foods, a natural selection pressure that has lead ultimately to humanity being stuck on a path to burning hydrocarbons and in a tiny way speeding up the process of the universe reaching its natural end point?
  • apokrisis
    7.3k
    The green is trees and plants and they have a knack of storing energy in the form of oil, coal and other hydrocarbons. This will never do, it is cheating the universe from getting to its natural, evenly temperate state as quickly as it might.TheVeryIdea

    The OP is heading in the right direction. But life is in fact entrained to the second law and serves it by accelerating universal entropification. Bare dirt reflects solar radiation at a higher temperature than a mature ecosystem - 60 degrees C vs 20 degrees C as a rule of thumb.

    So life pays for its negentropic existence by actively degrading energy. Life exists because it serves the thermodynamic imperative.

    So is our control of the energy gradient, which allows us to live anywhere on the planet because we can heat ourselves and cook otherwise inedible foods, a natural selection pressure that has lead ultimately to humanity being stuck on a path to burning hydrocarbons and in a tiny way speeding up the process of the universe reaching its natural end point?TheVeryIdea

    Or you could see Nature being stuck with this crap-load of hydrocarbons that got trapped in inaccessible rock seams. A lot of buried energy. And if it were possible for an organism to evolve that could dissipate it, there would be a big pressure for that to happen.

    So along came humans. And eventually they invented a new technology based way of life. That led to an explosive rise of the industrial revolution and a social/economic system geared to burning hydrocarbon.

    It was just bad luck that the heat produced couldn’t go straight out into space. The burning also produced a crap-load of atmospheric carbon.

    So in general, you can see global warming as a consequence of the second law. And humanity like an algal bloom.

    Sometimes life does too much too quick. You get explosive growth and an extinction event.
  • Manuel
    4.2k
    Entropy is a good word because you can use it and nobody knows what you talking about. Some famous scientist said this and he was correct.

    To be fair, you said "the second law" in the thread. The problem is that the second law applies to closed systems. Is the Earth a closed system? Is the Universe a closed system? This is debated endlessly.

    That's about heat specifically, but somehow it applies to everything. No global warming is because we don't want to change the system we have - at least those in power. It's suicidal, but it's what's happening.
  • TheVeryIdea
    27
    The existential question though is are we fire junkies, knowing that we should stop burning things but our animal brains just keep us doing it anyway or can we escape that destinity?
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    The existential question though is are we fire junkies, knowing that we should stop burning things but our animal brains just keep us doing it anyway or can we escape that destinity?TheVeryIdea
    Terraria, if they ever become practically possible,
    are my bet. :point:

    "A new life awaits you in the Off-world colonies. The chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure."
  • SophistiCat
    2.2k
    To be fair, you said "the second law" in the thread. The problem is that the second law applies to closed systems.Manuel

    No, the second law applies to all systems, but that just goes back to what you said at the start of your post. You should have stopped while you were ahead ;)

    Read response, he talks sense.
  • Manuel
    4.2k


    Ah, I see definitions vary from "isolated" systems, to all systems. And it is frequently connected with the "arrow of time", as Sean Carroll talks about - and others too.

    I fully admit to not understanding it, no jest. But I do think that associating it with "order" or "disorder" is subjective.

    Thanks for the clarification. :smile:
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    ... "order" or "disorder" is subjective.Manuel
    More like 'relative' in an Einsteinian sense.
  • Manuel
    4.2k


    Fair enough. :up:
  • SophistiCat
    2.2k
    I fully admit to not understanding it, no jest.Manuel

    No, you are right: entropy is a tricky thing (or things, since there are different kinds). Also, while the simple version of the 2nd law (entropy increases in an isolated system) applies to all isolated systems with a large number of "moving parts," the more general entropy equations that one finds in thermodynamics textbooks apply only to well-behaved, slowly changing non-isolated systems. So I was wrong too.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    it is cheating the universeTheVeryIdea

    Is it?
  • TheVeryIdea
    27
    Is it?TheMadFool

    Well obviously not in the conventional sense of "cheating" but it sounds better than "delaying for a femtosecond" :smile:
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Well obviously not in the conventional sense of "cheating" but it sounds better than "delaying for a femtosecond"TheVeryIdea

    The Wagon Wheel Effect



    Try this: say "night good" repeatedly, as fast as you can. At a certain point, you'll be find yourself saying "good night".
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