Who benefits from efforts to undermine and demonize a government's assistance to its people? — Ciceronianus
I wonder sometimes what those who decry socialism so frequently here in our Glorious Union think it to be. I suspect they don't think it's an economic system, one by which the means of production, etc., are owned by the government. They seem more inclined to deem it anything which they think benefits others (particularly certain others) more than it benefits them, or which limits their ability to do what they want to do, or which serves to persuade others not to think as they do. So Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, public education, welfare systems, have all been described as "socialist" or "socialism" by some in our Great Republic at one time or another, and have been claimed to sap us of our virtue and responsibility.
One must ask, with my daemon Cicero--Qui bono fuisset? Who benefits from efforts to undermine and demonize a government's assistance to its people? — Ciceronianus
As much as I like Cicero, I fault him for having a very poor understanding of economics. — Athena
The Plutocracy is necessarily and increasingly paternalistic. So it is no wonder that its most obsequious subjects are invariably callow. In the US, the Plutocracy uses the phrase self-relient “bootstrapping” to describe their scheme of keeping people in their cubicles. Now that’s a telling phrase: We all know it defies the laws of physics to bootstrap.
It seems likely to me that anyone living in that sort of system—raised in it, educated by it, paying for it—is nearly doomed to become dependant on it. And to be honest, I can hardly blame the man, his money stolen and used to build the wealth of others, when he seeks some sort recompense in the form of what it can offer. It’s not beyond the point of repair though. We can raise and educate our children to be what the family used to be, before it was nuclearized to benefit the Plutocracy with lies of independence.
As stated earlier, socialism (democratic) can be seen as the family writ large. Any paternalism is just all of us acting as a father-figure to those obsequious, callow, petulent kids who come running home when the world gets tough, but run away, acting all tough, when they don't like when daddy says "our house, our rules." They want all the benefits of society but they don't want to contribute. Oh well, they can run away to their cubicle and get to work for their masters. — James Riley
Actually, he asked the question in connection with his defense of someone accused of a crime. The sense of it is, that in determining who did something it's appropriate to ask who benefited from the act. And, it should be Cui bono fuisset. — Ciceronianus
I am 100% behind pulling one's self up by their own boot straps and my different point of view on this, probably is my age. — Athena
We must do the right thing because it is the right thing to do. — Athena
I have gone through life not thinking what it is in for me, but rather is the right thing for me to do for my family, and community, and country. — Athena
I can also see, when people turn their back on family, the family is more apt to need government assistance. That is where family taking care of family is also about democracy, liberty, and our country. We are good citizens because that is how to have a strong nation and a good citizen takes care of family. — Athena
But I think our Plutocracy problem is government supporting industry. — Athena
I hope someone can correct me or explain what I am saying better than I have. Whatever, this is not the old plutocracy, this is a stronger trinity of military might, industry, and government. And the taxpayers are paying for it. — Athena
And the taxpayers are paying for it. — Athena
I am 100% behind pulling one's self up by their own boot straps and my different point of view on this, probably is my age. I could be closer to the generation that survived the Great Depression than you are. — Athena
My memory is poor, but seems to me, Cicero was clueless about the reality of those who went to war for Rome and lost their land while they were gone to war! Not only did they loose their land, but they could not get jobs because of slavery. The wealthy were wealthy because they owned land and had slaves. They also held the seats of power and that means the system was to benefit the wealthy, not all citizens.
To a degree, giving the landless bread and circus prevented a violent revolution, but if I recall correctly some generals lead their troops to fight for what they believed they deserved, and in time these generals came to the seats of power. Should I look for more information? — Athena
My mom and dad both grew up in the heart of the Great Depression. I'm pretty sure no human being in the history of the Earth ever defied the laws of physics by pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps. That's just another myth that keeps us striving for the 1%. — James Riley
We must do the right thing because it is the right thing to do.
— Athena
Yes, and many would argue that taking care of the weak lame and lazy is the right thing to do, and what strong people do. Those who argue "teach a man to fish" often don't know how to fish. They are still eating fish caught by others. And let's not forget the fish itself. If we are to turn our backs on, and ostracize the lazy, we should start with the 1% who spout shit like "bootstrapping" and "fish."
Bingo! And I tip my hat to you. That is what democratic socialism is all about.
I can also see, when people turn their back on family, the family is more apt to need government assistance. That is where family taking care of family is also about democracy, liberty, and our country. We are good citizens because that is how to have a strong nation and a good citizen takes care of family.
— Athena
Family disfunction is not caused by a government that is there to provide a safety net. That disfuction is the result of an economic system that devalues the family and defunds community, democracy, liberty and government. The need for government assistence is created, and then not funded, so those who need it hate government instead of the system that drove them to it. That system is afraid of a strong nation, good citizens and family.
Absolutely no argument there! And, they took control of education in 1958 and this is destroying families and our democracy.But I think our Plutocracy problem is government supporting industry.
— Athena
Government supports industry because industry owns government.
I hope someone can correct me or explain what I am saying better than I have. Whatever, this is not the old plutocracy, this is a stronger trinity of military might, industry, and government. And the taxpayers are paying for it.
— Athena
You said it just fine. But it's not new. See "War is a Racket" by Smedley Butler. This MIC stuff has been going on for well over a hundred years
I have to question the right of feeding lazy people. However, it could be argued getting rich by what one owns rather than by working. is just as much a problem as feeding a lazy person who owns nothing. — Athena
but I am not sure what socialism is? — Athena
Where is the locus of control? — Athena
I want us to replace the autocratic model of the industry with the democratic model, and put the locus of on individuals working together rather than authority above them. — Athena
Family dysfunction is caused by many things. Alcoholism and drugs are big causes of dysfunctional families. — Athena
Cultures can make families strong or weak and right now our culture in the US is doing many things that make families weak and this why I started this thread. — Athena
this is a fight against the government's control of education. — Athena
If people do not realize the changes made by Roosevelt and Hover working together to create big government, and how this became the Military-Industrial Complex we have today, then there is no hope of correcting the problem. — Athena
Who benefits from efforts to undermine and demonize a government's assistance to its people?
— Ciceronianus — James Riley
Reagan scapegoated our poor for our economic troubles and he lied to us about not needing to conserve, so he could slash the domestic budgets and pour everything into military spending.
Who benefits? — Athena
We don't feed the lazy for them, we feed the lazy for us. We don't honor our agreements for the benefit of others. We honor our agreements because it is good for us to honor our word. I've oft used the example of Indians: We should not honor our treaties with them because we want what is best for them. Forget them. We should honor our treaties because our own Constitution provides that treaties shall be the supreme law of the land. We do it because it is who we want to be. We feed the lazy because we are good, right, strong, and not lazy. This is how we set standards that people want to aspire to. There will always be lazy, but there will be fewer of them when everyone looks around and says "Hey, would I rather be lazy and get something for nothing? Or would I rather be that guy who carries the lazy with broad shoulders and a smile on his face, embracing the suck, leaning into the load and enjoying the burn as he works his body? — James Riley
Where is the locus of control?
— Athena
The people, not the Plutocracy. The Plutocracy forfeited their right to the status of people when they created the corporation. It was only then that they created laws making corporations people. But they are not. Only the people are people.
For sure I question what culture has to do with addictions and the destruction of the family. I rather have someone who cares about me and is fun to be with, than rely on alcohol or a drug to feel good. But having that special someone depends on having social skills and also material things. Social skills must be learned and we might consider that an important part of education as it was in our past. And addictions are very much a chemical thing, it could be sugar, alcohol, or drugs or even watching the news, or exercising- these behaviors are about chemicals and hormones. And like wearing a mask to avoid covid, education could help improve decision making, but teenagers aren't likely to value the lesson.It is not the alcohol or the drugs that cause the dysfunction. Ask what kind of culture causes people to turn to drugs and alcohol?
Cultures can make families strong or weak and right now our culture in the US is doing many things that make families weak and this why I started this thread.
— Athena
I think you and I are saying much of the same thing and the agreement is there.
this is a fight against the government's control of education.
— Athena
That is only true because government is controlled by the Plutocracy. There is nothing inherently wrong with goverment control of education. The problem lies in who controls government. Our foundind fathers believed in public education and they were right, in my opinion. But what happened to civics, etc.?
Again, big government is not the problem and never has been (in the U.S.). The problem is, who owns the government? Money, or people? FDR was on the right track. But it was NOT government that created the MIC out of thin air or a vaccume. It was the private sector monied interests that did it. To kill government is to cut off your nose to spite your face. Kill instead the monied ownership of government. You see the giant turn in 1958 but money has sought to own government since the founding.
Reagan was a nice, likable guy, but he should have been providing sing-alongs around a campfire with a guitar at a camp for kids with cancer. — James Riley
I love your reasoning and it is my understanding too, except we have a little difference of opinion about helping the lazy. — Athena
I think under socialism the locus of control is the government. — Athena
For sure I question what culture has to do with addictions and the destruction of the family. — Athena
It is not just the Plutocracy that is causing a problem. It is also religion! — Athena
Well, there we disagree. — Athena
Why do you think big government that can be controlled by a handful of people is a good thing? — Athena
What can be done to increase the power of the people? Almost lost in this thread is the notion that strong families have something to do with the people having power over their government. — Athena
That is a good idea. In a way, he was a wonderful President because he gave us wonderful feelings of patriotism. — Athena
"Government is a committee for organizing the affairs of the ruling class." Maintaining the capitalist machine which concentrates wealth is the priority of government (which includes the military). — Bitter Crank
Look, most working people owe more than they own. Student loans, credit cards, and mortgages count against any assets they have access to, like their house--for which like as not a bank holds the title. Not only can they not lift themselves up, they are in a deep financial hole to start with. Sure, retired workers may be in better shape than younger workers, but they aren't "wealthy" by any stretch of the imagination. — Bitter Crank
I'm not sure about your information, or what it's based on.
Cicero died in 43 B.C.E. I don't recall reading any writing of his addressing land ownership or loss of land by men of the legions. — Ciceronianus
Yes, a mercenary army. Nothing like men joining together to defend their homes and family. That moved Rome from a nation of civilians to the Beast that had to be fed. The power and glory of Rome. Why do we admire it?
We get the reference to "bread and circuses" from Juvenal, who wrote in the late first and early second centuries C.E.
There certainly were wealthy people, some of them former slaves (freedmen), and slaves, and there were also people who were not wealthy, and neither slaves nor freedmen, but lived and made or didn't make money. The system certainly favored the wealthy. That's been the case throughout history, however.
21 hours ago
An "economic individualist" who recommended the enlightened pursuit of self-interest and defended property differentials, he was the first major political thinker to conceive of the protection of private property as the primary purpose of the state — Neal Wood
James Riley — James Riley
have been saying about government protecting the rich, but at the same time we might see how this benefits everyone. I don't know, there is so much to understand about economics and I know I do not know enough. My best economic understanding comes from a geologist who wrote "Mineral Resources and the Destiny of Nations". Mineral resources have a lot to do with history and the future. However, if one is in the middle of game like Cicero was, the economic considerations are very different.Bitter Crank — Bitter Crank
I think we can assume he was not a liberal when it comes to property rights. — Athena
Ironic that Tucker Carlson had a recent segment on Fox criticizing the concept of paternity leave that many conservatives jumped on board to agree with. Seems like the question should be Capitalism or Family Values, eh? — Maw
Private property rights is one of the primary liberal tenets. They were further caveated by Smith and other capitalists with the notion of "enlightened" self-interest. Don't milk your cow to death. — James Riley
difference between socialism and capitalism — Athena
Do you mean Adams Smith's book The Wealth of Nation's? — Athena
have been saying about government protecting the rich, but at the same time we might see how this benefits everyone. — Athena
My best economic understanding comes from a geologist who wrote "Mineral Resources and the Destiny of Nations". Mineral resources have a lot to do with history and the future. — Athena
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