"ludic fallacy" — 180 Proof

That's exactly what the doctor ordered! :up:

Play may be seen as frivolous or as serious because it embraces fantasy. Winnicott spoke of the teddy bear as being an important transitional object in negotiationing symbolic meanings. Having grown up with a mother who loved teddy bears, I understand their significance and my own bear, Russell, who wears dungarees still remains on my bed. I love toys as transitional objects, because they take us into the realm of fantasy. I can also remember as a child pretending to be many different rock stars. As adults, it may be that we cast aside our toys and our fantasies and, perhaps, this is a loss and play can be an important factor throughout life, and not simply in childhood. Drama and the arts may incorporate some aspects of play.

I just wish to add that play may be an essential aspect of the creative process, because it involves both imagination and experimentation. It may be too harsh when people lose the ability to play in preference for work and grim aspects of reality. A certain amount of playfulness may be important for human meaning and, even fun, rather than misery and play may be important in the ability to see humour and, prevent seeing life in it most tragic form. Play may be important in philosophy in order to put ideas together creatively and to bring forth ideas in new ways.

Everything you say is true, except the things you identify are not play. They're something else, something good, but not play. — T Clark

What? How about trips to fun places such as the annual Steam Engine event where there is an old sawmill run on steam and many other old steam engines. I love going there! It is so exciting to me. Or going to an archeological dig, or exploring caves? I guess I am luckier than many folks as these things, including our local university library and the art museum enliven my inner child with delight. It is hard to imagine how anyone could have that feeling and distinguish it as different from play. Now I am really confused! If the joy I feel is not play, then what is play?

Now I am really confused! If the joy I feel is not play, then what is play? — Athena

I like the way @bert1 said it:

play is non-goal directed activity. — bert1

All of the events you describe - the Steam Engine event, the archeological dig, etc. - could be play, but the events you were talking about previously:

Excuse me, but I love work parties. You know, where everyone shows up to accomplish a goal, building a barn, or stuffing envelopes, or feeding over 100 people a Thanksgiving dinner. I also don't understand why being happy and working together is not the goal even when we are paid to do something. — Athena

These are goal oriented and I don't think of them as play. Maybe that seems nitpicky, but I don't think it is. The distinction is important. On the other hand, both things are wonderful.

I just wish to add that play may be an essential aspect of the creative process, because it involves both imagination and experimentation. It may be too harsh when people lose the ability to play in preference for work and grim aspects of reality. A certain amount of playfulness may be important for human meaning and, even fun, rather than misery and play may be important in the ability to see humour and, prevent seeing life in it most tragic form. Play may be important in philosophy in order to put ideas together creatively and to bring forth ideas in new ways. — Jack Cummins

Speaking of creativity is perfect! Much of our childhoods are spent creatively and imagining being adults. We play house and may play grocery store, or back in the day, it was cowboys and Indians modeling the TV shows we saw at the time.

I cheated and looked for an online definition of play.

Encyclopedia of Children's Health.
Image result for what is play?
Play is the work of children. It consists of those activities performed for self-amusement that have behavioral, social, and psychomotor rewards. It is child-directed, and the rewards come from within the individual child; it is enjoyable and spontaneous.

My inner child is alive and well. :razz:

These are goal oriented and I don't think of them as play. Maybe that seems nitpicky, but I don't think it is. The distinction is important. On the other hand, both things are wonderful. — T Clark

My goodness, when we play games we often play to win. I would not put the criteria of having no goals on the word "play", but do recognize those goals can ruin the fun if our head is to set on the goal there is no sense of fun. On the other hand, if we join a work party, there is a goal to accomplish something, but it doesn't feel like work if we are having fun. Wow, I am thinking hard on this and checking with how the different ideas make me feel. Does the idea feel right or wrong? I realize how many things I have stopped doing something because it is not fun. So for me, it is not if we want to win, or if have a goal, but how much fun we are having. If it isn't fun, I walk away, unless I am paid. Work is what I do for pay. :lol:

My goodness, when we play games we often play to win. I would not put the criteria of having no goals on the word "play", but do recognize those goals can ruin the fun if our head is to set on the goal there is no sense of fun. — Athena

Tom Brady loves football, but when he goes out on the field, he's not playing. If you're trying to win, I don't see it as play.

There's no need for us to go into this a lot more if you don't want to. I can see your point. I have my own way of seeing it. The word "play" has room for both our views.

Tom Brady loves football, but when he goes out on the field, he's not playing. If you're trying to win, I don't see it as play.

There's no need for us to go into this a lot more if you don't want to. I can see your point. I have my own way of seeing it. The word "play" has room for both our views. — T Clark

:rofl: I was just listening to a professor explaining the American mind. The lecture today was a series of philosophers who brought us to doubt. Don't we love philosophy? :grin:

I love facilitating workshops on healthy living and I don't consider that play either. It is more serious than play. But I think a person has a problem if winning a game of Scrabble is that serious. :lol: I think we can agree maybe there is not a distinct difference that is constant and unchanging? The same activity can be all about fun and can get very serious. I don't mind loosing to someone, but if I am loosing too badly I can get very serious about closing the gap. :lol: On the other hand, while trying to get across the importance of good health habits, if I am not having fun and not being fun, people don't come back. Even when we are being serious, it can be important to be fun. And if you are loosing the game of Scrabble too badly, it is time to get serious. :lol:

I think we can agree maybe there is not a distinct difference that is constant and unchanging? The same activity can be all about fun and can get very serious. I don't mind loosing to someone, but if I am loosing too badly I can get very serious about closing the gap. :lol: — Athena

I'm fine with that.

As a matter of interest, the one thing I do every day that I consider play is participating in the forum.

I'm fine with that.

As a matter of interest, the one thing I do every day that I consider play is participating in the forum. — T Clark

If we are too serious about our arguments, perhaps we need counseling? A few things though really push my buttons and I turn into a crazy person. That is one of the reasons I believe respect is so important! When we are disrespected we can become defensive and feel the urge to attack. Then this is no longer play and it is no longer fun and it ruins threads.

Thankfully, most of the time the forum brings out my inner child, having so much fun learning new things or having a better understanding of what I believe is so. I think we have to feel safe for really good thinking to happen. When we feel safe we can explore our ideas and dare to be different and creative, and under such conditions, we all expand our consciousness.

The US no longer feels safe. Our minds are closing down and people are picking up weapons. We no longer allow our children to be as children but expect them to perform like college students as we rush to teach them what to think. Oh dear, my heart is sad. We need the spirit of play and for that, we need to feel safe. Thankfully, most of the people here are safe to engage with. Philosophy is so important!

Suppose God exists. You ask him "why God did you make the world as it is?" He responds "I was just playing."

What's going to be your reaction? [Choices not restricted to one emoji]

1. :rofl:

2. :angry:

3. :cry:

4. :meh:

5. :gasp:

6. :worry:

7. :chin:

8. :brow:

9. :confused:

10. :pray:

11. :roll:

When we are disrespected we can become defensive and feel the urge to attack. Then this is no longer play and it is no longer fun and it ruins threads. — Athena

One of the things I value about the forum is that it has taught me to be more patient and not to respond, at least not as often, to provocation.

When we feel safe we can explore our ideas and dare to be different and creative, and under such conditions, we all expand our consciousness. — Athena

I guess my problem is the opposite of yours. I have never been able to not say things that come to mind, even when I shouldn't.

The US no longer feels safe. Our minds are closing down and people are picking up weapons. We no longer allow our children to be as children but expect them to perform like college students as we rush to teach them what to think. — Athena

I don't feel this way at all.

We need the spirit of play and for that, we need to feel safe. — Athena

Yes.

Suppose God exists. You ask him "why God did you make the world as it is?" He responds "I was just playing." — TheMadFool

There are religions that describe gods creating the world so that they would have someone to play with. I remember @Wayfarer writing about it.

My hope is with the younger generation and women. Sure, they have their 10%, but generally they are better than what's been the dominant paradigm. — James Riley

Curious, why do you say they are better? I think the old paradigm was more patriarchal and as women gain power we become more matriarchal. That is more focused on feelings and children and the welfare of women. I remember when women did not exist except as extensions of men. Then one day I read a New Woman magazine there was the word "she" where always before there had been only the word "he". I don't know if women have changed, but rather our environment has changed in a huge way!

I am not sure all the consequences of that change will be good? Wanting our children to be as college students and competing against each other for their place is society, may have a very bad effect. Children need an atmosphere of play to explore who they are and have good feelings with their peers which become good feelings about who they are. I am afraid too many children are denied this childhood safety and end up mass murderers or struggling with emotional demons of unworthiness and helplessness?

What theories of play interest you and what exactly is it — I like sushi

Play is just the pleasurable side of practice.

There are religions that describe gods creating the world so that they would have someone to play with. I remember Wayfarer writing about it. — T Clark

I'll wait for Wayfarer to edify me.

Curious, why do you say they are better? — Athena

Well, like I said, every group has there 10%, but in general:

I think the old paradigm was more patriarchal and as women gain power we become more matriarchal. That is more focused on feelings and children and the welfare of women. I remember when women did not exist except as extensions of men. Then one day I read a New Woman magazine there was the word "she" where always before there had been only the word "he". I don't know if women have changed, but rather our environment has changed in a huge way!

I am not sure all the consequences of that change will be good? Wanting our children to be as college students and competing against each other for their place is society, may have a very bad effect. Children need an atmosphere of play to explore who they are and have good feelings with their peers which become good feelings about who they are. I am afraid too many children are denied this childhood safety and end up mass murderers or struggling with emotional demons of unworthiness and helplessness? — Athena

I'm man enough to turn over the reigns and step back. It's time for a change, as far as I'm concerned. Good luck. Oh, and please don't do to us what we did to you. Although I can understand it if you do. And one other thing: Keep an eye on the Lauren Boeberts, Marjorie Taylor Greens and Sarah Palins of the world.

One of the things I value about the forum is that it has taught me to be more patient and not to respond, at least not as often, to provocation.

When we feel safe we can explore our ideas and dare to be different and creative, and under such conditions, we all expand our consciousness.
— Athena

I guess my problem is the opposite of yours. I have never been able to not say things that come to mind, even when I shouldn't.

The US no longer feels safe. Our minds are closing down and people are picking up weapons. We no longer allow our children to be as children but expect them to perform like college students as we rush to teach them what to think.
— Athena

I don't feel this way at all.

We need the spirit of play and for that, we need to feel safe.
— Athena

Yes. — T Clark

I try to ignore provocation but they get to me emotionally and that really ruins everything for me. I don't want to be sexist about this, but maybe there is a male/female difference? I am blown away by what some congresswomen are saying about male predatory behavior. This is not the thread for that debate, but I am amazed by how much things have changed! Women did not have the power they have today and I think this makes a huge difference!

Burned in my mind is what a school teacher said at the 1917 National Education Association Conference about the importance of being personal. Is a woman wrong to think a video about a man killing a woman is NOT funny? Is that taking a joke too personally? I am trying to respond to you and stay on topic but might men and women have a different experience of what is funny and what is not? In the early years of the internet, it was kind of like the wild west. I was constantly told I needed a thicker skin. Eventfully rules were made and the internet forums became more civil. However, we are dealing with the fear of teenagers taking their own lives because of internet activity. Parents are concerned about the internet NOT being a safe place for their children to play.

I don't remember reminding girls to play safely, but oh my goodness those boys! The boys absolutely love hitting things with a stick, pushing, and shoving. Again and again the boys would start out laughing and having a good time and this turned into anger and serious hitting. They thought it was so unfair that I would stop them before things got mean. One could think evolution made boys different from girls? :lol: Good back on topic, do girls and boys play the same?

I'm man enough to turn over the reigns and step back. It's time for a change, as far as I'm concerned. Good luck. Oh, and please don't do to us what we did to you. Although I can understand it if you do. And one other thing: Keep an eye on the Lauren Boeberts, Marjorie Taylor Greens and Sarah Palins of the world. — James Riley

What of the Native Americans renewing their fight to have treaties respected and where their land can not be returned to have fair compensation for that? What of the Blacks pointing out how housing discrimination has hurt them for generations bleeding into wanting acknowledgement of the wrongs done to them, and White people feeling very threatened by what could be the end of their domination?

TheMadFool — TheMadFool

His post is perfect for this discussion!

We are not dealing with just better technology but a huge shift in consciousness! It is not just the women folk having a stronger voice, but all people who were excluded from the White man's grab for wealth and power. This is not just socialism versus capitalism but justice and morality versus being pretty ignorant and primitive and brute force ruling.

Suppose God exists. You ask him "why God did you make the world as it is?" He responds "I was just playing."

What's going to be your reaction? [Choices not restricted to one emoji]

1. :rofl:

2. :angry:

3. :cry:

4. :meh:

5. :gasp:

6. :worry:

7. :chin:

8. :brow:

9. :confused:

10. :pray:

11. :roll: — TheMadFool

I choose #1 :rofl:

I love your insight. :heart:

On second thought, there was a time when God tried to wipe us off the face of the earth. That would be angry or disapproving. He is a pretty emotional chap, so maybe He has had all those feelings at one time or another.

We are not dealing with just better technology but a huge shift in consciousness! It is not just the women folk having a stronger voice, but all people who were excluded from the White man's grab for wealth and power. This is not just socialism versus capitalism but justice and morality versus being pretty ignorant and primitive and brute force ruling. — Athena

Yes, this is off subject, but you keep going on, so I'll have my say just this once. And, yes, this is something I feel strongly about. Women who say they want to be respected but then blame the problems of our society on men rather than taking their share of the responsibility are hard to take seriously.

You're right, this is not the right discussion.

What of the Native Americans renewing their fight to have treaties respected and where their land can not be returned to have fair compensation for that? What of the Blacks pointing out how housing discrimination has hurt them for generations bleeding into wanting acknowledgement of the wrongs done to them, and White people feeling very threatened by what could be the end of their domination? — Athena

Sounds good to me. But if it's in a treaty, then don't fall for the "fair compensation" BS. Just give them back the land. It's called "specific performance" in equity. If we want to give money to those who "improved" the land, then pay them, as they pack their trash and get the hell out.

On second thought, there was a time when God tried to wipe us off the face of the earth — Athena

I Noah guy who had information on that! :wink:

Emoji fest!

Good morning everyone. How did this thread get so off track? Looks like it could have been my fault. :sad: How about if we talk about our childhood playing? I absolutely loved it when we went to the field and played, before puberty. You know, when it didn't matter if someone was a girl or a boy? We built forts, rode bikes. We left the house in the morning and didn't come back until people began turning their lights on. By the end of summer, I was pretty bored and really glad to return to school.